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Hoping someone can help me, I have a mk 1 butt I am trying to replace but I can't remove it from the reciever, I have removed the butt plate, return spring and rod but cannot remove the butt. I could be just being thick but I can't see how it comes off, can anyone give me some advice?
Many thanks.
Problem solved.... I was being thick and I've just used my combination tool for the first time!
Than combination tool enables you to completely strip the Mk1 Bren. Give that tool to the average crunchie and guess what he'll do.......? Yep, completely strip the gun - which is the very last thing the Armourers shop needs him to do. We say just give him the basic cleaning kit to keep it clean and free from fouling.
Important to know/bear in mind that Bren butts are always hand fitted. There was no such thing as all-round interchangeability then. And while you are there, don't forget to replace the little, easily forgotten clicker detent plate and spring.
As a matter of interest, according to the small arms school committee minutes the butt buffer (the bits that are retained by the sling loop bracket screw) were a frill - if not a complete fraud and were only incorporated into/on the UK Bren gun due to a) the original licensing agreement and b) as they formed part of the 'chinese puzzle' butt assembly. Subsequent guns eliminated this fraudulent total waste of time
Interesting stuff, thanks for your advice Peter!
I have a Mk 1 Bren dewat. The upper and lower receivers are welded together, can I still remove the butt and pistol grip ? And can I use normal tools other than a combo tool ? Thank you.
In short, yes! While you're there and along the same lines, you can remove the carrying handle and inner sleeve with a normal wide bladed screwdriver too. But watch out as that nut is spring loaded from below.
BUT, replacing it is quite another matter as you have got to compress the spring under the nut and then thread the zillion TPI nut onto the zillion TPI stem. If it's not square-on it WILL cross thread VERY easily. Can I suggest that if you are going down the replace-the-carrying-handle road that you STOP and back-off as soon as you feel something ain't right.
Remove the nut and handle, clean the thread, make sure the nut assembles to stripped stem cleanly and squarely, then start again.
Sorry to ramble on but it's easy to continue to screw beyond the point of no return. As apprentices, we were taught that as Armourers, we would only be permitted to ruin/destroy a carrying handle stem by neglect once during our time. The second time we'd have to pay for our neglect. It was a load of pure bolloc.........., er........ rubbish of course. But it taught us to be careful.
Thank you Peter I will not remove the carrying handle but definitely need to remove the butt stock and pistol grip, happy to hear that for now I will not need a combo tool, but will get one soon. What ordinary tools can you recommend to use please ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
When refitting a carrying handle retaining nut. the following is a simple but effective thing to do. As Peter hast stated, when all the components are CLEAN & LIGHLTLY Oiled.
When you go to fit the retaining nut, SLOWLY screw it on inistialy in reverse. IE: Counter clockwise. If you do this CAREFULLY, you will feel the nut lightly 'Click', as it jumps off the top thread.
Once this has been felt. THEN screw the nut home fully. This way, if you do this, you WILL reduce the chance of damaging that fine thread!
Peter has already stated how fine that thread is. & believe Me, it IS indeed. VERY FINE!!!!......You only get one chance, don't Bugg.......ER....Mess it up!....:nono:
Re thread 7. Just use the screwdrivers that fit properly. The carrying handle screwdriver is a forked - as on the comb tool. But most Armourers made their own to suit.
Thank you guys.
Oh what about the Mk1 barrel flash eliminator sleeve, can it be removed easily ?
Only if the barrel is removed. It's got to have the TAPERED crosspin driven out first. (A Hydraulic press would be ideal for this) & the driven off the barrel with either a Hard Rubber mallet. Or the issue Armourers Mallets' Rawhide!Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis3006
So much for that, the barrel is welded on lol. Thank youQuote:
Originally Posted by tankhunter
Ive done 2 on the gun, I used a home made clamp like a G clamp and pushed the pin out ( Peter has an article on the forum about removing it).
You were VERY lucky BP! Most of these that I have done, have been VERY firmly stuck fast to the barrel itself!...:(Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit plumber
I took a Mk1 barrel to the machine shop to press the taper pin out using a short dumpy tool. Just the smallest tweak and the pin almosr fell out. Such that I'm sure a hammer would have doe the same. The sleeve shouldn't be a press fit onto the barrel, it was a ground, tight but running fit and they knock off quite easily. After all, they were originally made to be able to be screwed on and off for a few threads and locked in place by the........... anyway.....
Incidentally Elvis, the reason why the sleeve was a 'stainless' material was that it could be removed, to put a blank firing sleeve in place for training etc etc. In short, support the larger diameter pin side of the barrel and hit the taper pin xxxxxxg hard with a xxxxxxg heavy hammer using a larger diameter punch, slightly recessed so that it won't slip off the pin. The pins are a normal eaasily obtainable general engineering taper pin.
PS I've got some of your records!
I heated the sleeve until there was oil spitting out and it only worked when I used a piece of drill rod as the end piece. I was telling Kev G about one of these recently, it was a Mk2 barrel that had an early Mk1 sleeve. I'd heard that these were trial barrels but after removing the sleeve I can confirm it as bollocks. All the Mk2 machining was present, all be it modified for the Mk1 sleeve.
Thank you Peter, I will try as you instructed. I wish to remove the sleeve so I can clean around the gas system as thoroughly as I can even though the barrel is welded in place. Happy to hear you are a fan of the King o rock n roll lol !Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Most of the barrels I had to do. Had rust between the sleeve/ flash hider. & the barrel itself.
Add the that the build up of crud & carbon round the muzzle. And if you are as unlucky as I was. You too, will have the 'joy' of a 'Difficult' removal!.....:madsmile:
Pete, what does that B/Fire sleeve look like Mate? I have only ever seen the bulleted blank 'Shredder' type. They have a thread CUT ON THE END OF THE BARREL. And you have to drive the pin out & unscrew them to replace. Once a thread has been cut, they remained ON THE BARREL. And were a DEDICATED Blank firing barrel. Usually selected for the job, because the rifling was worn beyond limits for a normal service usage. :ugh:
I have never seen one of the Mk1 barrel BFA's because we didn't take up the expensive contractural agreement option of having them. So while we might have had a couple for the trials Brno guns, we didn't (?) make any for the Mk1's. We used single shot crimp blank and gas rattles to simulate Bren gun fire!
I don't know when the buklletted blank stuff came out either!
The first bulletted blank Bren barrels were the Mk2's and much later, Mk3's, had the masher end welded into the flash eliminator but they were no end of trouble and the gunners didn't know when the masher part had been shot out of the flash eliminator by the tremendous continues force of the wood bullets continually pounding away on it. Others simply sheared the tapered flash eliminator retaining pin away and shot off the flash eliminator and sights. The flying 'bullets' were causing injuries. That's why the later types were made to be screwed on and a later version you mention didn't have a pin (?) but screwed on AND secured with a bolt.......... The whole front end of the barrel was painted BFA yellow (also known as Bicycles For Armourers yellow!). I seem to recall that you weren't meant to put a foresight on the BFA barrels so that in the event of a mishap, you weren't actuslly aiming at anyone in particular! Maybe that's a load of old bollo...., er...., rubbish passed down since time immemorial among the few!
Bulletted blank barrels were a real pain as the crunchies weren't permitted to strp them to clean out the shi........, er......... carbon and other crap. So they went back into the QM's or Armoury caked in crap. We used to keep them in the Armourers shop, stripped down with the parts in a plastic tub of OX24 oil and the barrel muzzles nose down in the tub too.n We also used to leave the Browning tank MG BFA's in an oil bath too. The tankies used to leave them covered in oil for the firing so when they took their photos through the turret ports, the brownings would be steaming oily smoke! Happy days............
Yes, the Bulleted Blank 'Masher' types I worked on. Has a vertical hole drilled to one side. & a pin fitted to prevent it unscrewing during firing. I can only recall that much later Barrels & you will remember this too. 7.62mm LMG barrels that were selected for blank firing. Had an E.M.E.R Instruction, to drill right through the barrel transversely. Fit a nut & bolt & stake the bolt shank ends. To prevent the nut unscrewing. & then paint the front 8" or so, Bright yellow, Paint' Heat' Resisting. Or as you say Paint, bright Yellow, High visability, Armourers Bicycle, Theft preventing, High Profile Colour!...:lol:
For those that are not familiar with this Modification. The bolt acted as a 'Choke' to restrict the flow of gas down the barrel. To a point where it slowed it, enough for some of the Gas to be tapped off. To drive/ cycle the action.
Later on in service. A detachable Blank Firing Attachment was introduced. So that the guns 'Normal' Barrel. Could be used on exercises for blank firing. The amount of blanks used on exercises, was deemed insufficient. To wear the barrel to any detrimental degree. :wave:
It's funny how you remember all of this crap isn't it? At 27 Command, one of the senior rank 'office wallah's' came in and asked for his bike frame to be sent through the system and to be painted a semi-gloss (but not satin) black. You did this by leaving the sunkorite unstirred and then painting a couple of thin coats so it went through the oven and came out quite shiny. If he'd been a half decent bloke, that could have been done. But as he'd stopped a little '..........take Friday afternoon off' wheeze a month or so earlier, it didn't work out like that. At the end of a busy day in the paint bay, bead blasting, phosphating and painting hundreds of BFA's, the instructions were rather mixed up. His bike frame and forks ended up bright yellow!
But alls well that ends well and to be honest, after he'd calmed down and turned down the painters suggestion that he would camouflage it with some khaki camo. pattern next time he was painting mortar base plates, he re-assembled it, it looked quite nice!
You old Bren gunners out there, ever hear or know of a left handed soldier being able to effectively use the Bren gun ? I am a south paw by the way :D
Hundreds of them. They do it in a similar way that cack-handers use the SA80/L85. You learn to shoot it right handed. There are two ways that the Army teach their cack-handers to shoot right handed. The easy way......... Or the hard way. But whichever way you opt for, you WILL learn
I don't think a leftie would ever make the mistake of shooting an L85 in the left shoulder a second time.
Basic Really, You can only Shoot a Bren/ LMG right handed. Why?.................Because the sights are on the LEFT!!!!!!......:rofl:
I've probably told this before but when I went on a pre introductory shoot with the then 'new' L86 LSW (said to indicate 'leaves squaddies worried' although there were other phrases to describe it), I made the mistake of firing the first burst with me left hand over the top pf the 'butt' as you would with an L4/Bren that we were replacing. The trouble was that my fingers were in the path of the cocking handle. And yes, it did hurt the little finger nail was torn away and it did bleed. And yes, I did get my own back on the safety supervisor some time later!
Are L86's still in the system BP?
I think there are some but the ones that are left aren't in use. I know there are some on the SAT ranges or should I now call it the dismounted trainer or what ever it's called. They were the guns deactivated in the 90's and then modified to operate like the real gun using computers, lasers and CO2 to operate the gun. I would like to know why they were deactivated (And proofed by Birmingham PH) when they must have messed with the deactivation to place lasers in the barrels etc. Its a shame they will never be sold off.
I was informed (By a collegue in service) that the eventual fate of the LSW's. Was that they were to be converted into Semi-Auto Only's, (Some remaining as LSW's. Most to be converted into rifles) to go to the Cadet force units. So that they were not scrapped, & at least went on to provide a useful/ supplementary life to this Arm. Cadets are always at the bottom of the scale equipment & weapon wise. So my thoughts were, this was at least something sensible that the M.O.D had sanctioned? How true this is, I cannot tell you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit plumber
BP, I have one the L85A1 SAT Trainer rifles in my collection. The barrel is SOLID steel & it has the Air Piston & some electrical gubbins still in place. The Air feed tube is also present. I have a notion to rig up some sort of air operated system with small diameter pipes & actuator switch to operate the Air to attempt to get it 'Working again...Time is always against Me these days though. & the reality is, it will probably not happen! but the spirit is willing!......;)
The internals of the trigger Mech housing, bear no relation to it's real firing big brother though. & it could not be modified to fire live.
I have seen plenty of former LSW trigger mech housings and presumably upper bodies converted into L98A2 Cadet GP rifles with a small plate/weld over the former rear grip bolt hole. Also, some of the former L98A1 Cadet GP trigger mech housings are now in service as the base for new L85A2's. You can only tell them now by the little bar-out line through the L98 A1 that used to be on some of them.
I don't have any dealings with them/my sons former school CCF any more but they're more than happy with the semi-auto rifle. They do have 3 LSW A2's now though.
As a side note, from the last page, if you have a really stuck pin you can use a heat source to warm the area around the pin a little and then light a candle a drip the wax onto the stuck pin. It will work it's way down the pin and lubricate it. Sounds crazy but it will get in there even if it's crazy rusted. Used it on a ripper tooth that a 100 ton press wouldn't push out.