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I recently bought this P14 and would like to know a bit about this rifle could how they ended up here in South Africa. I am absolutely flabbergasted by the amount of knowledge from contributors on this sight. I am firstly a avid hunter and have a few rifle's in the hunting class but this is my first venture in older military rifles. I must admit that I find it fascinating and can see a new addiction in the making.
Nice looking old rifle...and welcome to the neighborhood...
Nice looking P14. A target rear sight and a shim under the upper band, it's pretty clear what this old girl has been up to. What is written on the muzzle end of the bbl?
Yes you have the right site others will follow with their knowledge photos assist them in perhaps gleaning info as to information but as Bluenoser said the obvious signs are it has had range rifle time.
Welcome
They entered your country the same way the Lee Enfields did, from the Brits. I am told by one of your fellow countrymen that are many, many P17s there....well there was before your current government started cutting up all breeds of Enfields.
I cant provide much more as the rifle is in the custody of the dealer I purchased it from. We have a very slow licensing process here. The photos were sent to me by the dealer as it was a online purchase. I do know the serial number W213410 and The words "TESTED BY PARKER HALE" on the receiver in front of the rear sight. I have not come across or heard of anyone owning a Model 1917 here. I have seen pics of a P13 at a LERASA shoot and apparently the only one in South Africa. I will post more photos when I receive the rifle though.
My Best,
Bill
Billya: Looks like a nice rifle. The W in the serial indicates it's a Winchester, as you're probably aware. Like most it was upgraded to "Weedon Standard" prior to or during WW2 which included removal of volley sights, brass butt disk, etc. My own Winchester (serial quite close to yours) ended up in an Eddystone stock. You may be very pleasantly surprised how well it may shoot with that nice aperture sight installed. I hadn't heard of packing under the nosecap as an accurizing trick and maybe someone can elaborate? As built, they were suppposed to have a few pounds of up-pressure at the forend tip (rest of barrel floating) and the barrel was free to move up in the nosecap during firing. Let us know how it shoots.
Ridolpho
I meant P14s.
Yes there are quite a few P14's here but unfortunately most are use as donors for custom hunting calibres particular with the popularity in big bore rifles. Sad but true locally the Action is more in demand than the value for original military nostalgia. There are many of the Lee Enfield's here as well. Again a lot are sportized for hunting but retain the 303 Brit calibre or upgrade to the 303 Epps.
My Best Bill
From the looks of it it is an ex-weedon (pre-ww2) upgraded pattern1914. From what you say about the rear sights and from what I think is written on the muzzle crown (parker hale ball burnished?) This is a Parker Hale regulated target rifle. Looks like there is still grooves at the muzzle so the barrel might well have considerable life in it and shoot well. Quite a few here in New Zealand also as shooting 303british was very popular "in the Colonies". If it has no SA acceptance stamps then it was never in the SA army and hence surplused out, so its probably a private import. Its most likely that the gun was sold to PH as ww2 surplus after ww2 and bought by a SAer and imported for target work. Its fairly lightly used probably because once past 500yds an accurised no4s shoots better and hence no3s were not competitive. I can see some packing at the muzzle but I am un-sure that achieves anything as I am told they didnt respond to "improving" very much. In saying that I'll try it on my gun and see what happens. I do know ppl tried over-packing the no4 in a failed attempt to keep up with Omarks etc (which just didnt work) so this is probably just a home spun attempt, all interesting though!
The high serial number indicates its a * and I think made in 1917. However if you post here, Great War Forum (you will have to find the right forum) there is a guy who did massive research on these, telling me for instance that my gun was accepted into UK service on the 7th July 1917 (wow).
I would be grateful for some clarification. For the same bullet, velocity and, to be quite sure, twist - which must surely mean the same external ballistics - if rifle A groups tighter than rifle B at 100,200,300... yards, then I am puzzled as to how rifle B can then become superior at longer range. As far as I know, bullets have no memory. So 500 yards downrange the bullet does not "know" which rifle it was fired from. All it "knows" is the external ballistic situation at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssj
I agree its a bit mystifying. I cant clarify it as such, this is what has been reported to me by old NZ 303 shooters, all in their 80s, seems to be to do with barrel resonance and the ability to accurise a No4 (bit of an art apparently). So where I am at right now is, the Std no4 in good nick ie a no4 mk2 shoots about 1 3/4inch MOA and a Pattern 14 is about the same. An accurised no4 can apparently be got down towards 1inch MOA, where the pattern14 "resists" such endeavours. I am at present modifying / re-accurising a no4 mk2 target AJParker no4 to see what I can get out of it and I have an ex-target no3 as a comparison (which seems to be around 1 1/2MOA) , also I have a std Parker Hale no4 mk2 but it will take me a while to come up with some results to see what is what as I lack the time right now.
There is also the big variable, the shooter. If both the No.4 and the P14 were locked into a Ransom rest or something similar, so as to take the shooter out of the picture. We could test both at different ranges both using the same ammo and get an accurate picture of the physical accuracy. would love to see the results of a grouping test using this method.
The std accuracy is well published.
On top of that you also need to ensure 2 equally good barrels etc...
Its quite simple the no4 won more competitions, hence its almost certianly the more accurate gun.
regards
But for the Boers the rifle would never have been designed.
It looks like the stock has been recently stripped which IMO is a pity since it means the loss of many decades of patina which matches the finish on the metal nicely, whereas a stripped and oiled stock does not.
Very interesting to hear that .303 Epps is or was popular out there.
I've heard tell that you are only allowed one rifle, one shotgun and one pistol in S.A. these days; true?
Hi Surpmil, Must agree it is indeed regrettable that the stock has been stripped and I can find no markings on the stock at all. I have since received the P14 and love it for what it is. I have only shot some old military ammunition received with the rifle and have not been disappointed with the accuracy. I will attach a pic of my last few shots (100 Meters) once I figured how to adjust the PH5B sights. After the holidays when our range has re-opened I will update the grouping shooting fresh factory ammunition. I intend to reload so hopefully that grouping will be improved. There is no real restrictions on the amount of firearms you may own in South Africa as long as you can provide proof of proficiency and active membership with registered associations for the category of licence you apply for. I am classified as dedicated hunter status and therefor have several hunting rifles and shotguns.
As a matter of interest there is a document in the South African Military Archives which records the stock of P.14 Rifles in the country as at the 31st July, 1945. There were 19,383 of which 2,907 had been brought over from the UK by the R.A.F. Training Establishment.
There are a few M.17 Rifles in South Africa. The attached photo is of one of them:
Attachment 59991
While I do not know anything about accuracy different between the Mkr 4 and the P14, I would think overall the P14 would be as accurate or more so, but maybe that's me and my bias in regards to the P17 (yes I know not officially right but you all know what I am talking about!)Quote:
Originally Posted by ssj
that said, I have read a number of experts who have stated that some bullets will stabilize and shoot more accurately once out past a certain distance. I don't get it but I am also not an expert. so its possible to shoot 1.5 MOA at 100 yds (or meters!) and get 1.25 at 400. Odd.
A lot of funny things happened with rifles and shooting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssj
False logic that totally ignores statistics. Like "most Nobel Prize winners are men, therefore men are more intelligent than women".
By the time the No. 4 was in production, most P14s had been through a war, withdrawn from front-line service and relegated to the colonies, sold to the French in Algeria, Home Guard etc. So the number of competitive P14s was already low in comparison to the number of as-new No. 4s, and today it is much worse. What I have seen as P14 relics is dire, but I had little trouble in finding an as-new No. 4.
Fully agree. Getting accuracy out of the SMLEs seemed to be a serious slog where the P series were pretty normal.
As I recall the role they often put the P14 into was a sniper. Of course by the time WWII rolled around that was not a very good option and made do with what they had.
Of course that's my pretty uniformed opinion.
The target shooters around these parts preferred the P14 for shorter range work, but the No1 and later No4 for long range work. The compensation of the Lee Enfield action tended to even out vertical dispersion.
There are No4s that will shoot same hole at 100yds, but there are more P14s that will, given equal condition.
The Ross MkIII was pretty much in a league of its own for accuracy, as is increasingly being rediscovered.