hi guys i have a few pounds of powder marked winchester ball for 50cal. plus primers. can this powder be used in other calibers. other wise i would have to sell it to someone loading for ma duce. thank you
Printable View
hi guys i have a few pounds of powder marked winchester ball for 50cal. plus primers. can this powder be used in other calibers. other wise i would have to sell it to someone loading for ma duce. thank you
I would suggest selling it. That being said, I wouldn't buy it, without a positive ID it's just fertilizer to me.
thank you for the information will try an get some more info an pictures up this week end
Since I do not know what type of powder you have I cannot you specific information. From experience I can recommend-discard it or dispose of it. That being said I shall try to provide some information (old) on 50 caliber powders.
After WWII the big powder companies would not sell powder or provide loading data so the handloader was left to his own wits. The US Army through the DCM sold off non-canister IMR4895 which handloaders experimented with. Bruce Hodgon started buying surplus and retailing it. Along with 4895 and 4831 he also advertised H570 and Spherical (ball) H870 plus 5010(M.G.) powder. As I understand it the last three were 50 caliber ammunition powders. They were very slow powders and not of much use to the average handloader.
To Quote form one of Hodgon's loading manuals (circa 1960):
"H570 and Spherical HS870:
These two powders are approximately the same burning rate-very slow. Adaptable to overbore capacity magnum cases such as 257,264,270 and 300 Mags with heavy bullets."
"510 (M.G.) :
This is the slowest powder adaptable to sporting arms. Only in large cases and extremely heavy bullets can pressures be brought up to give good velocity. Accuracy is frequently fund by using a case full with medium and heavy bullets."
Some of the cartridges he has recommended loads for are:
*375 Weatherby - 350 gr Barnes bullet-velocity 2151 fps-H570
*308 Norma Magnum- H570- with bullets ranging from 165 gr Speer to 220 gr Speerbullets
H870 with bullets ranging from the 110 gr Speer to 150 gr Speer
All velocities are well below what could be expected with other more suitable powders- pressure is as to be expected low-probably with many unburned granules.
*300 H&H- using H570 and H870 with 150 & 200 gr Speer give velocities in the more respectable 2800 to 2900 fps range
It is my understanding the 4831 was used in loading ammo for the 20mm Oerlikon MG and is much more suitable for normal (30-06) ammo. The 308/7.62mm was not available at the time. It was used extensively by hand loaders for the 30-06 and the 30 Magnums with very good results. There is no data given for the 458 Win Mag or any of the large British African ammo. The 458 Win Mag was not available yet and there was little demand for the Big British ammo at the time.
Why the Oerlikon powder was faster than the 50 caliber powder is a function of the action of the firearm.
Because I do not know what powder you have I am not including any specific loading data from th Hodgdon Manual.
FWIW
This would be about right. Anything that's from or for .50 cal needs huge case capacity for any usefulness at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosine26
If the propellant can be clearly identified and is in "fresh" condition, it should be OK.
4831 is a very "slow" powder used in stuff like the .50 BMG. Be aware that there are, oddly enough, TWO versions of 4831; Lots more head-spinning tech info can be found on the Web and in reloading manuals.
It is also one of the very best propellants for hot-rods like the .25-06 Rem., especially when using 120gn bullets, and is useful in many of the "overbore" magnum cartridges.
See also Nobels "0", if you can find any.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosine26
Oerlikon canons are basically a giant SMG and use a pretty-much straight case. The Browning .50 cal M2 etc is a fully-locked, recoil-operated weapon that fires a bottle-necked cartridge.
Thus, the Oerlikon needed a relatively faster propellant so that it would burn in the almost straight-sided case, and in the short time before the breech-slide assembly started to move rearwards under pressure from that propellant combustion.
The Browning design, being fully-locked at ignition AND having a longer, bottle-necked case, would need a slower-burning propellant; VERY different pressure curves (and peak pressures).
Bruce...he already has this unidentified powder...no idea what number to identify it. Just that it came from .50 cal...apparently. That's it.
If the container is a later Winchester marked one then the type of powder should be on it. Most likely a series of numbers something like 5048 or such. There is a lot of 50 cal. powders around right now as not many reloaders have any use for it.
Well, I guess we can speculate to death, but until he gets back with pics or info...I just think he means plain packaging written in crayon...he says he'll post pics.
I believe that I indicated in my first posting that I was talking about 4831 released by Hodgdon which he had purchased just after WWII. We used to buy it in 100# kegs for $50.00. When it arrived, we would bring our own containers and divide it up. I used in 30-06 and 30 H&H. After the surplus powder was used up, I believe that Hodgdon and other manufacturers sold different versions which were similar to but not exactly the same as the surplus powder and that the various "4831's" differed slightly from manufacturer to manufacturer. I am not familiar with these 4831's as I never used them.
I have not fired an Oerlikon in about 70 years but as I remember it, the gun fired from an open bolt. It had a very strong spring and to cock the gun we used about a three foot lanyard with an "eye "on each end. You would elevate the gun to maximum elevation, slip one eye over a boss on the mount and the other to the cocking knob . The cocking knob was above the elevation pivot so that when the gun was raised to the horizontal the gun was cocked. It had a double loading stop that prevented a second round from trying to enter the chamber when there was one already there.
The drum magazine held 60 rounds and had a handle on the rear. To load, the lip on front of the magazine was engaged first, and the magazine was closed to the rear where it was latched. To reload, there was a spade type of magazine release that was operated by bringing your had forward to slap the release and letting it continue on to grab the released magazine by the handle. Using the handle , the magazine was removed and a new one loaded.
There was a version where the gun could be raised or lowered using a wheel to operate a hydraulic piston. The idea was to keep the gunners knees slightly bent. The problem was that during cold weather, only a gorilla could turn the crank.
The gunner strapped himself into to "U" shaped shoulder pieces and was strapped in. He had two handles. The trigger was a crank shape item on the right grip, pulling this to the rear fired the gun.
I doubt that 50 caliber ammo was loaded with 4831, but that's my opinion.
FWIW
hi guys going to get the pics an info written on containers. these belong to a dear friend who closed his gun shop. there is over 100 pound of powder an dozen of containers of brass along with primers. i am supposed to move some of the personal items out of building for him over week end an will get pictures of these items. them they probably will be sold or traded
Love the sideline info about the Oerlikon cannon Cosine. Never had it explained before. I've done lots with the .50 but never handled a 20mm.
Some more reading:
exterior ballistics
*(In manuals or writings published before 1973, any mention of 4831 will refer to Hodgdon’s H4831. In older manuals, it was customary to list the powder simply as A4831” with no designation connecting it to the Hodgdon line. The reason for this is simple; prior to DuPont’s introduction of IMR 4831 in 1972, the surplus 4831 sold by Hodgdon was the only powder to carry this designation. Despite their similar nomenclature, these two powders (IMR 4831 and Hodgdon 4831) are not interchangeable and must not be confused. IMR 4831 is significantly faster burning than H4831, and may produce dangerous pressures if used with data developed for the latter.)
http://www.gd-otscanada.com/upload/F...ilitary(1).pdf
Yes...and there's more than just those two.
As they say in the classics:
"I just love 'industry standards';
There are so many to choose from!"
hi guys tried to get pictures of powder but some reason pictures are real dark with the deal is 1500 cleaned sized casings. 5000 black tip heads an 1000 red tip heads. powder is marked winchester ball c. 50 cal ammo powder. this powder an casing an bullet heads were from demilled ammo. i do not have a firearm to use this so i am going to sell an split money with owner. like to sell it all to one person to make it easy
---------- Post added at 08:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 PM ----------
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ps8ad3c531.jpg
---------- Post added at 08:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:41 PM ----------
I suspect the black tip is armor piercing and the red tip is tracer. Better be sure you can sell those when the time comes...I think there may be some regulations in certain places...good luck with that.
thanks jim
i would like to sell all to one person as that would be safest way. some one who has a rifearm to use it in. an reloads for it. the owner does not want big money for items maybe 2.00 for each empty an 5.00 a pound for powder.??? I tried to explane to him that this stuff is a speciality item an only few people would buy it.
You'd be better placing an ad in the WTS section of this site...it should get more exposure there.
thank you for the info would like ot find some one local or willing to meet to buy the lot. thank you for the help
Maybe use Google to find a Barrett rifle owners forum. Those guy's no doubt reload for their rifles otherwise it's like $5.00 a pull.
This link should give you an idea of going prices.
50 BMG Ammo Supply - 50 cal Ammunition for the rifle and machinegun
Good idea...
thank you so much waiting for infom from the barret group.
