Do NOT use .30-40 brass to make .6mm Lee Navy.

I know the man this happened to and personally spoke to him today at our club. I've been away a few weeks and didn't know this happened until today. He is an experienced shooter and reloader, he is a range officer and runs some of our matches. He's a Milsurp guy just like us, Thank God he walked away with relatively minor injuries. He took what he thinks was the firing pin to the forehead which left a deep cut that didn't penetrate the skull. He took shrapnel to the cheek, left chest and arm. He will be scared but he's alive. DO NOT USE converted .30-40 brass to make 6mm Navy.

Link to Forgotten Weapons where it was written about.
Winchester Lee Navy Safety? Forgotten Weapons

Point taken...but they're too far apart for me to even think that. I kept buying all the navy Lee brass I could find and reloaded it. There was a story about using 220 Swift brass. Once you take the base down and re-create the rim, you don't have much web left there. I used original bullets and then when they were depleted, I used 224 bullets. A bit small but...when you look at the remains of the rifle, I think there's more than meets the eye. Experienced handloader or not. Mistakes happen and only need be once. This one had a bomb go off in it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I think there's more than meets the eye. Experienced handloader or not. Mistakes happen and only need be once.

---

Absolutely Jim, but in this case he followed the recipe in the November American Riflemen article to the tee except for the brass. He bought the brass online from a guy in Texas, so who knows what the story is on the brass. It was the weak link in the chain without a doubt in this case. The rifle let loose on the second shot. Just be aware out there in internet land this was the second rifle to let loose in this manner "that's known about" while using .30-40 brass.

Good think these stories didn't come to me 25 years ago when I had my Lee. I had a great time shooting it, one day going through 40 rds alone. Probably the most ammo shot by a Lee in 50 years at one time. All correct cases...some did crack though. The gun was long ago sold. It was an original sporter too...

I wouldn't go so far as to say without a doubt. I've seen the pics, it wasn't just brass failure, he had some very high pressure that made the brass fail. There is the possibility of overheating the brass when turning off the rim and cutting the extractor groove. However, I feel that what he had was a rough throat and a thick jacketed bullet, with the bullet temporarily acting as bore obstruction, raising pressure to the "we don't wanna go there" level. The head of the 30-40 doesn't need to be pared or swaged down to make 6mm Lee from it. Todays 30-40 brass runs around .453 at the head and will actually seal the chamber better than the original 6mm cases. So, just because he "thinks" the case was at fault doesn't necessarily make it so. Comparing some recently made Remington 30-06 to 30-40, there is some difference in the thickness of the web, .020". Anyone cutting an extractor groove in 30-40 cases should bear that in mind and decrease the bevel on the forepart of the extractor groove. I believe the Lee rifle has an extractor with a very square face, but I'm not lucky enough to have one to look at first hand to verify that. Does someone have an original 6mm case that they could measure the thickness of the web? I get .173 for Krag, .193 for 30-06. I don't mean the thickness left in the primer pocket, but the thickness of the whole head.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by andiarisaka

I've seen the pics, it wasn't just brass failure, he had some very high pressure that made the brass fail.

---

Agreed Andi, it looks like a bomb went off in there. Some extreme pressures. I have two here, one WRA and one REM-UMC...both are .440" exactly. Factory original...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by andiarisaka

I feel that what he had was a rough throat and a thick jacketed bullet, with the bullet temporarily acting as bore obstruction

---

You may right. The problem is, like I said he followed the recipe in AR to the tee except for the brass. He used the Speer 105g spitzer with 30g IMR4895 which he hand weighed. What the article doesn't mention is using reformed .30-40 brass but using reformed .220 Swift. The first round went off fine with no pressure signs. Round two,,, and Pop goes the weasel. These are the known facts, not guesses or maybes. Could other factors be involved? of course, but that's only guessing. I this case the shooter lived to tell his tale. In the first case the shooter ended up with a chunk of metal at the back of his skull. I would be skeptical too if I didn't know the individual involved. People can take the advice or not. If it was the bullet Lee Navy reloaders/shooters have a problem on their hands.

Any time you size necks DOWN to form a new case, eg. ..308W to .260Rem, or worse, .243Win, you need to keep a close eye on neck thickness. As the outside diameter is squeezed, the brass flows to make the neck relatively thicker. If you use the expander ball, you will end up with cases that will be a very tight fit in the chamber neck, if you skip the expander, the "hole in the middle" will be too small for proper seating of the projectile and will bulge alarmingly and not necessarily concentrically when you force in a projectile..

You MUST either ream the inside or turn down the outside of the neck to specified thickness. This also tidies up neck concentricity. I prefer inside-reaming as it removes any "interesting "do-nuts" or internal bulges resulting from movement of brass at the shoulder/neck junction.

And then there is neck-annealing before or after these modifications……

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

You MUST either ream the inside or turn down the outside of the neck to specified thickness.

---

You also wind up with thicker brass up top of the case. Reduced capacity...anyhoo...it was a small bomb.

Bob S, a poster on jouster had a very much similar experience. His load was only 25gr of 4895. First shot with a light thin jacketed bullet, next shot was with a heavier Winchester Powerpoint. It blew the primer, and if he'd been using converted 30-40 brass instead of converted 25-06, he may have obtained the same results. Bob was wise enough to tie his Lee rifle down and fire it with a lanyard, so no apparent harm done other than what the brass suffered. Bruce has a point, neck thickness can be an issue when converting cases. I make better fitting 6.5 Japanese from 30-40 or 303 British. Remington 30-40, PRVI 303. For my rifles, I don't have to turn the necks, not even for a .271" cast bullet though that's about max. Of course, that will vary from one rifle to another and across different lots of cases. That wouldn't have been an issue for the fellow who wrote the American Rifleman article that supplied the load data used, as he was necking up Swift brass. I also noted he was shooting a sporter, probably not fired as much with the erosive WA30 powder as a milsurp would've been. In his sporter 32gr of 4895 was ok and he thought that to be a low pressure load. Not so in an old eroded bore. It could be the old erosion is stripping some of the jacket off the first shot, increasing pressures of subsequent shots. I had an eroded Krag barrel that left rings of lead in the throat when shooting cast bullets until I polished it up with stainless steel brush. BAR, I meant the thickness, as in measure the total case length then subract the depth measured with your caliper. Course I don't expect you to pull down a collector cartridge, but if you have an empty.

Sorry Andy, I don't have an empty. Just two originals...

The problem really is he followed someone's recipe without doing enough of his own thinking and double checking.
I saw the photos. He would have blown up that rifle with any brass. He did something to cause the high pressure.
It might have been a too light powder charge with a heavy bullet. Unfortunately the only way he can trouble shoot his mess is to put the
barrel on another rifle. I am glad he is ok. Glenn DeReuiter was not so fortunate and his demise should have been a warning.


>>>The problem is, like I said he followed the recipe in AR to the tee except for the brass.<<<

I have a French drawing from 1898 of the "6mm Lee". Interesting thing is the headstamp shown in this drawing is W R A Co / 236 U.S.N.

I will attempt to post it.[IMG]E:\WORK STUFF\AMMO AND BALLISTICS\6mm Lee Navy\6mm_ Lee Navy 2[/IMG]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

W R A Co / 236 U.S.N.

---

I have one like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ireload2

The problem really is he followed someone's recipe without doing enough of his own thinking and double checking.
I saw the photos. He would have blown up that rifle with any brass. He did something to cause the high pressure.
It might have been a too light powder charge with a heavy bullet. Unfortunately the only way he can trouble shoot his mess is to put the
barrel on another rifle. I am glad he is ok. Glenn DeReuiter was not so fortunate and his demise should have been a warning.

---

Yup, sure thing.

The .236 indicated approximate bore diameter, like .303 does your Enfield, .236"=5.994mm. Groove diameter of the Lee is .243, don't let the conversations of those who don't know on the other forum make you think "wrong size bullet". Actually, it's close to the bore diameter of most modern 6mm barrels, Obermeyer 5R barrels being the exception, they have a bore diameter of .233". European made 6mm barrels have a bore diameter of .237"