Question Regarding Volley or Long Range Sights on the No 1 Mk III

I am about to start my next restoration project and could use a little guidance.

It is a Canadian issued 1916 BSA Sht LE Mk III (not III*). I would like to restore it back to as-issued configuration complete with volley (long range) sights, but am not sure it would be appropriate for the year of manufacture. I understand the Mk III* was approved in January of 1916 and the associated List of Changes stated with regard to the Mk III “In future manufacture, rifles of the above-mentioned pattern may embody any of the following modifications:

(a) The omission of long range sights (dial and aperture) ……..”

Choice of the word “may” implies that rifles equipped with long range sights could have been produced well beyond early 1916. I believe they were, but have nothing concrete to base that on.

What are your thoughts?

Probably 99% of all MkIII came out of WW1 without volley sights anyway - nearly all of them were restocked during the war.

Frankly, unless the rifle is a specimen that survives with its volley sights intact, then its most "original" form as it was last in service would be with cut-off but without the volleys.

Valid comments and I agree completely. I have restored several back to last in service configuration as best I could determine it. My objective this time around is to restore it back to as issued configuration and I would like that to include long range sights, if appropriate, since that is so rarely seen on a No. 1 today.

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Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Valid comments and I agree completely. I have restored several back to last in service configuration as best I could determine it. My objective this time around is to restore it back to as issued configuration and I would like that to include long range sights, if appropriate, since that is so rarely seen on a No. 1 today.

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One problem you will have is if the forend has been replaced and is not a transitional forend there is no palm swell where the dial sight goes. Finding the right marked sights may also be a problem ( they are not all the same) .
The other issue I see is you maybe devaluing a rifle by doing that conversion unless it is a total rebuild from parts in which case the value will never be there in a representative piece.
I dont consider them rare just not as plentiful as MK111* as I have more than enough in my collection of Lithgow and Brit rifles.

I consider them rare as they rarely come up for sale. there are plenty of collectors out there with a dozen MkIII's with volley sights in their collections. however these days the acquisition of a totally correct MkIII with volley sights is difficult, and fairly expensive unless you get a lucky deal, the last MkIII I saw for sale here in NZ on the open market was nearly $1000. I agree with Bindi that if your rifle is as it was issued after a rebuild modifying it will devalue it, also it is quite likely that is left BSA without volley sights anyway. However if its already a mixmaster and you have maybe less than mint forend with the 'bulge' for the dial sight, i'd go for it if you have the skills and tools. I did it for my NZ marked BSA 1908. I had a ratty forend which I pulled form a boneyard in OZ, I used a pillar drill, sharp curved chisels and some spade bits which I filed to the exact size. I was also lucky enough to have the sported forend which provided the pattern which I also did a practice run on. If you's like some pics of my work ill post them up

Interesting and helpful comments

To clarify, the starting point is a barreled action and a butt plate. All of the wood was trashed when it was sporterized. I would not be in favor of modifying an intact gun.

Bindi2’s points are well taken. I see coming up with an appropriate forend as my single greatest challenge, other than the posted question. If I were fortunate enough to find the right sporterized forend that has been cut beyond the band, I could do an extension with a hidden splice. I have done that quite a few times on Long Lees and carbines. Monetary value on completion is not a consideration for me. I probably chose my words poorly with regard to rarity. My intent was to say Mk. III’s with long range sights are rarely seen (not rare) in the market today – at least in my experience.

Roy, I would very much like to see pics of your BSA 1908. I am sure others would too. I would especially like to see close-ups of the palm swell area.

We had a tacit acceptance that once a weapon was officially modified by, for example removing the dial sights or the cut-off then it was NEVER retro modified in service. The unwritten rule for cut-offs was that they were removed if the slot would be covered by a fore-end. If you weren't going to replace the fore-end, then because it would leave a pathway into the magazine for grit and shi........, er.........., other muck to enter, the cut-off stayed. But once a high fore-end was fitted the cut-off went

In my service I only ever saw two examples where a weapon was retro modified. A Mk2 Sten gun had the original cocking handle replaced and modified hole in the body welded up and the other. Just for display purposes. The other, an original Enfield 1986 SA80 reverted back to its 1986 spec simply for comparison purposes and to show how things can be when you don't listen to those who REALLY know

Almost twenty years ago, I found this rifle for sale from an old friend, the bore is still nice and the barrel is also dated '09 with both SC and HV stamps. The rear sight has a working windage knob. The bolt is not matched to the rifle. The volley sights are complete. This rifle is without any import marking.Attachment 58321Attachment 58322Attachment 58323

EFD has new made mkIII stock sets but, they are expensive.

Would those members with long range sight equipped Mk IIIs in their collections please post the manufacturer and year of manufacture here?

Bsa 1916

Peter: You say "In my service I only ever saw two examples where a weapon was retro modified" - could I suggest a third example you have mentioned here previously? The stocking-up of L42A1s, where No4 Mk2 fore-ends, as well as being cut down and channel opened out for the floating barrel, were returned to MkI configuration.
When, as I understand it, a No 4 Mk 2 style fore-end [as used in Envoys and Enforcers] would fit the L42A1 perfectly well and with less trouble involved.

Fair point Rob, but it's not really comparing like with like is it? The Mk1 and 2 fore-ends were converted to make them suitable for the L42. The rear of the Mk2 fore-ends were converted back (to Mk1 spec - and done badly at that.....) simply to enable the plentiful existing stocks of Mk2 fore-ends to be readily utilised.

I think I mentioned it earlier; but when the dire* state of the Mk1 and Mk2 fore-end conversions soon became apparent there was a suggestion that the L39 type Mk2 fore-ends could easily be utilised on the Mk1 bodied L42 rifles. This was rejected by '.....those wot know best.....' because laterally, the open rear end was not supported by the Mk1 body - as it is with the trigger block on the Mk1/2,3 and 2. It would have meant....... Anyway it was rejected.

When we dovetail patched and pegged the muzzle ends of the L42 fore-ends (even the 'new' ones came in from Ordnance as thin and flimsy and about to break.....) we made sure that we didn't follow the internal line of the fore-end. The groove for the barrel was floated out so as to leave .020" or the thickness of a piece of card around the free floating barrel. That was all that was required so you were left with substantial meat at the tip of the fore-end

However, it was permitted to use the more plentiful Mk2 fore-ends on all marks of DP rifle where such niceties didn't matter
* I use the word 'dire' simply because there are no words to really describe the true state of them!

Bsa 1912

RSAF Enfield, 1916

LSA 1913
BSA 1914
Lithgow 1916

I've got an Enfield Mod 1913 Mark 3
Completely matching, including unit markings on the disk.

LSA 1912 all matching

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Originally Posted by RobD

"In my service I only ever saw two examples where a weapon was retro modified"

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Am I mistaken having seen MkIII*'s with the '*' lined out and the cutoff reinstalled.

Ill get some pics up monday.

Yes, there are plenty of those around and it's entirely possible that they were done in UK Military service too. The instructions in the first EMER's and Armourers notes following the demise of the old Inst for Armourers are pretty ambiguous - in a way that 'suggests' a sensible course of action. While the last No1 EMER makes no mention or differences between the Mk3 and 3* beyond the technical description.

One way the old EMER's 'suggested' things was to suggest that '........Districts or Commands having lesser facilities might utilise those in the best way possible'; being one that I remember. I mean....., what are 'lesser' facilities? And what does 'best way possible' actually mean? Anyway.........

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Originally Posted by Roy

I consider them rare as they rarely come up for sale. there are plenty of collectors out there with a dozen MkIII's with volley sights in their collections. however these days the acquisition of a totally correct MkIII with volley sights is difficult, and fairly expensive unless you get a lucky deal, the last MkIII I saw for sale here in NZ on the open market was nearly $1000. I agree with Bindi that if your rifle is as it was issued after a rebuild modifying it will devalue it, also it is quite likely that is left BSA without volley sights anyway.

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This has been my experience too - I cannot remember the last time I saw a Mk III (no star) with the cut-off AND the volley sights AND the windage adjustable rear sights for sale. Like yourself, I have no doubt there are plenty of them in private collections, but they don't seem to leave those collections often. I asked around recently looking for one, without any luck at all - a surprising number of people didn't know they even made .303s with volley sights or windage adjustable sights. I'm told the Mk IIIs come up for sale sometimes at the twice-yearly big arms auction in Melbourne, but the prices from that frequently seem waaaaaaay out of my budget.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Enfield

This has been my experience too - I cannot remember the last time I saw a Mk III (no star) with the cut-off AND the volley sights AND the windage adjustable rear sights for sale. Like yourself, I have no doubt there are plenty of them in private collections, but they don't seem to leave those collections often. I asked around recently looking for one, without any luck at all - a surprising number of people didn't know they even made .303s with volley sights or windage adjustable sights. I'm told the Mk IIIs come up for sale sometimes at the twice-yearly big arms auction in Melbourne, but the prices from that frequently seem waaaaaaay out of my budget.

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But isn't that the point. They are priced according to availability.

High price due to low availability = Rare.


Just noticed a nice looking 1910 LSA on 'our site' has not hit reserve, vendor has a few nice pieces, will not allow a viewing.

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Originally Posted by Roy

High price due to low availability = Rare.


Just noticed a nice looking 1910 LSA on 'our site' has not hit reserve, vendor has a few nice pieces, will not allow a viewing.

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Go Wanganui!

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Originally Posted by Homer

But isn't that the point. They are priced according to availability.

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Well, theoretically. I don't think the usual economic laws of supply & demand apply to military surplus guns though - a fairly average condition .303 is running to at least $500 in Australia nowadays, despite every gunshop I've been in having several of them in the racks and often several more out the back which they haven't worked out what to do with yet. If it's in pretty good or better shape, you can be looking at $750+

Luger pistols in the US seems to be same - fetching silly money despite in no way being rare. (They're rarer in Australia because their barrels are too short for ownership on a sports handgun licence, but they're still about on the collector's market, also for silly prices).

Now, I'm not saying an original Mk III shouldn't be expensive - they're clearly rare - I'm just backing up Roy's observation they hardly ever seem to come up for sale, and when they do, they're very, very expensive. I think it's important to back up people's anecdoatal experiences in these situations if they match your own, because in my experience if you say something like "Mk IIIs are rare, they hardly ever come up for sale", you're quite likely to get a (well-meaning) poster saying "That's not true, my local gun dealer in Moose Wedgie Creek, Wyoming has a rack full of them, all matching, for $425 each", and then the original poster looks foolish when it's the second poster whose experience is unusual (and likely to receive an inbox full of PMs asking for the dealer's contact details :p)

I'm not sure why the laws of economics wouldn't apply. It seems that more people want them than there are guns available.

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Originally Posted by Homer

I'm not sure why the laws of economics wouldn't apply. It seems that more people want them than there are guns available.

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Except that's clearly not true, in the case of run-of-the mill .303s. They made quite literally millions of them (Wikipedia says 17 million and I know a lot of your roll your eyes at Wikipedia as a source, but the article is extensively referenced so I think it's a reasonably ballpark figure) and there are still (admittedly fewer) millions of them about. There's about 770,000 licenced gun owners in Australia and most of them don't want a Lee-Enfield. There's certainly more than enough .303s about here for everyone who wants one to have several - so there's no reason (in my mind) for them to cost what they do.

Bear in mind I'm talking about generic Mk III*s and No 4s here; not Mk IIIs.

Lsa 1914

Well I want more but have run out of excuses and courses of fire to procure anymore the last one the BSA T excuse = "WWII Vintage sniper matches" after which I will have to get rid of one if I want another as they get toey having more that a couple of the same caliber and do not even go there if you have a switch barrel as we are not allowed to have barrels at home.
This is in West Aus as our gun licensing is about the toughest in the land and getting worse they have just hiked the price of additions now to $180.oo then you have to supply a serviceability certificate from the gunsmith at $25 so $205.00 for the addition but it is a supply and demand market I am waiting for a '37 Lithgow and will still be waiting...I was pretty lucky to get my 1916 "H" barreled one (H stamped on the top Butt wrist) 10 years ago for $100.00.
My take on it I would be very happy to have heaps more but......

I have not had any problem sourcing No1 Mk111s in Australia to the point I have just sold one (1916) and gave the purchaser the pick from 3 (all 1916 plus bayonet 1916) and that did not include the ones not for sale. I have as issued, as recalled added star, refurbed with cancelled star and cut off. Depending on which one they wanted the price started at $1,ooo and went up in big steps. I threw in a charger with 5 deact rounds plus 1 for the mag, oiler and pull through.

Demand is definitely high right now in Canada due, I think, to internet fueled interest and currently favorable ownership laws. I talk to a lot of people at gun shows and often encounter newcomers looking for a first milsurp. Two distinct groups- young guys looking for a $175.00 SKS and older, well healed types looking to start a collection with a No.4T or similar high end piece. Level of knowledge is often low and for serious collectors bargains can still be found. But not No. I MkIII's- everyone with a $5.00 copy of Stratton wants one. I've probably only seen 3 or 4 for sale at shows in the last 3 years. One on a larger commercial company website was priced at $2300.00! Meanwhile nice, original MkIII*'s can be found for $300. I had to import a MkIII from the US early this year to finally have one in my collection (meanwhile I've had no trouble getting a reasonably priced MKI***, Mk V, MLE, T's, etc, etc). I believe it is a supply vs demand situation but one in which non-market forces (politics) drive spikes in demand. If our esteemed Liberal Party ever regains power we may see another glut in the marketplace like that which accompanied the imposition of the now defunct long gun registry.

Ridolpho

I have
1907 BSA MkIII Imported by me from Australia
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...07BSAlhs-1.jpg




1909 EFD MkIII (No2 MkIV*) My first Volley sighted SMLE, brought at a Auction & was my representative MkIII for a few years
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...09EFDlhs-1.jpg




1911 BSA MkIII Brought at a auction 3 years ago, full matching numbers & in great condition, was willing/prepared to go $1600, got it for $410
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MkIIILHS-1.jpg




1915 LSA MkIII (No2 MkIV*) Imported by me from Australia, sold on, then reacquired back.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2MkIVtwo-1.jpg




1915 Lithgow MkIII Brought as a sporter & rebuilt by me.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...thgowLHS-1.jpg




1916 Lithgow MkIII (No1 MkIIIH) Imported by me from Australia.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...thgowLHS-1.jpg



In my 30 odd years of collecting, i have only seen another 2 or 3 MkIIIs that were any good for sale but seen others in collections but also seen a few collections that were short a Volley sighted MkIII, IMO, quite scarce in NZ

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Originally Posted by Colonel Enfield

Except that's clearly not true, in the case of run-of-the mill .303s. They made quite literally millions of them (Wikipedia says 17 million and I know a lot of your roll your eyes at Wikipedia as a source, but the article is extensively referenced so I think it's a reasonably ballpark figure) and there are still (admittedly fewer) millions of them about. There's about 770,000 licenced gun owners in Australia and most of them don't want a Lee-Enfield. There's certainly more than enough .303s about here for everyone who wants one to have several - so there's no reason (in my mind) for them to cost what they do.

Bear in mind I'm talking about generic Mk III*s and No 4s here; not Mk IIIs.

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Yes but clearly this discussion is about MkIIIs with volley sights and not just any SMLE.

SMLE Mk III types with volley sites:

1907 Enfield Cond IV
1910 Enfield Cond IV
1912 Enfield Mk III
unk BSA Mk III Commercial
1914 BSA Mk III (converted to SMLE Mk I**IP, now .410 conversion, dial sight patched over)
1915 BSA Mk III (now .22 Sht Mk IV)
1915 Enfield Mk III (now .22 Sht Mk IV*)
1916 Lithgow Mk III (now MK III H)

5th Batt, I now see why there are so few Mk IIIs with volley sights about - they are all sleeping at your place...

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Originally Posted by RobD

5th Batt, I now see why there are so few Mk IIIs with volley sights about - they are all sleeping at your place...

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And this is one reason there are so few for sale on the market. Collectors are never happy with just one or two and will usually acquire whatever becomes available. These then usually don't get advertised for resale on the open market and pass from one collector to another. This is my own experience acquiring rifles and also selling. I've very recently sold almost my entire collection and never advertised one rifle.

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Originally Posted by RobD

5th Batt, I now see why there are so few Mk IIIs with volley sights about - they are all sleeping at your place...

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There are even less in Australia now as I note that three of 5th Batt's are imported from Australia.

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Originally Posted by ufo8mydog

There are even less in Australia now as I note that three of 5th Batt's are imported from Australia.

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My MkV is ex Australia as well, all imported via Daniel C @ Guncollectables which is now shut down.

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Originally Posted by 5thBatt

My MkV is ex Australia as well, all imported via Daniel C @ Guncollectables which is now shut down.

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He was probably mugged by a frustrated Aussie collector:)

But i have helped you guys get a few N9s & a couple of No8s so you still owe me!

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Originally Posted by 5thBatt

But i have helped you guys get a few N9s & a couple of No8s so you still owe me!

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I will help settle what we owe you 5th Batt, by re importing your Lithgow rifles back to Australia :dancingbanana:

Yeah we'll send you all these beautiful N^Z marked No4's and you send us the daggy dinted maple lithgows.

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Originally Posted by ufo8mydog

I will help settle what we owe you 5th Batt, by re importing your Lithgow rifles back to Australia :dancingbanana:

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:nono::nono: Having lost some Auctions to 5th you are back down the queue somewhat.

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

:nono::nono: Having lost some Auctions to 5th you are back down the queue somewhat.

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May the man with the deepest pockets win :p

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Originally Posted by ufo8mydog

May the man with the deepest pockets win :p

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I think you might have already lost:)

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Originally Posted by Homer

I think you might have already lost:)

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Lost already how? lol

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Originally Posted by Homer

I think you might have already lost:)

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Yeah! had a bit of a chuckle myself :)
Bet he still does the Aussie Haka when its his round thou :lol:

These are for Bluenoser, I inletted this rack (rat) grade stock which I got from Oz where they were breaking up rifles at a gunstore. Its on a 1908 BSA NZ marked which is in equally battered condition. it had been armoury rebarreled with a '40 MA barrel but the rear sight was mullered so I replaced it with a windage one so it still looks the part. The original stock was sported but still had the original sights on it which I reused except for the dial plate which had been partially filed when the stock was cut. The wood around where the dial goes was a bit spongy and crushed a little under even sharp chisels but im happy to have this pretty mongrel.

Roy, Thanks for posting the photos. It is readily apparent the end result was well worth the effort.

This has developed into an informative and entertaining thread. Thanks to all who have chimed in. I have a renewed appreciation for Eastern Canada. I wouldn’t consider Mk IIIs scarce here, just not nearly as common as Mk III*. I picked up the C-broad arrow marked 1916 in question at a gun show this fall for less than $100.00, and had others to choose from. With regard to long-range sights, the posted dates ranged from 1907 to 1916. Most were 1915 and 1916, although it should be noted most of the 1916s were Lithgows. I am now confident BSA did produce long range sight equipped Mk IIIs in 1916 and will restore this one accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Bluenoser

...I am now confident BSA did produce long range sight equipped Mk IIIs in 1916 and will restore this one accordingly.

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I think there was a discussion of when the MkIII to MkIII* change-over occurred exactly and what features were dropped and when. IIRC quotes from original docs of the time suggested that certain features sometimes persisted on early MkIII* rifle as stocks of parts were used up by the manufacturers.

Someone much more knowledgeable than I about SMLEs may have already made that point here - I haven't read it all. ;)

Rob is right. The manufacturers were all (except Enfield) private contractors who's profits were presumably being nibbled away by the Government - as holds good today! As the labour and parts costs decreased you can bet that the unit price decreased accordingly. So they made hay while the sun shone and used up all the parts they had in stock as once the parts are declared obsolescent, no more are ever ordered * so if you've over produced, you've dipped out unless you use them up!

Same at H&H and Sten gun parts manufacturers. Paid up to a certain date and then STOP. What you have left over is tough luck!

* Only exception to this rule that I know of was the L4A1 mag catch with combined HOD that was re-ordered so as to make use of old, needy but otherwise serviceable L4A1's in Ordnance stores

Here's some auctions that ended last night on NZs Trademe all a bit rich for me without holding them in hand.
Collectors Item .303 Lee Enfield SMLE Mk I * 1906 | Trade Me
Collectors Item .303 Lee Enfield SMLE Mk III 1910 | Trade Me
Collectors Item .303 Lee Enfield No4 Mk I NO STAR | Trade Me

I don't want to steal a thread, but it's related and I didn't see this until I posted a topic similar.

I'm looking at a 1912 ShtLE that's in a local gun shop. It's all-matching, including the magazine, and I'm looking at it as a restoration project.

The "problem" I'm having is that the cut-down stock doesn't have the volley sights, and I can't tell that the rear volley sight was in place when it was sporterized. It does, however, have room for the magazine cutoff, though the cuttoff isn't there anymore (I assume removed for practicality when sportered).

I haven't seen any marks indicating rearsenal, but I'm starting to wonder if it was. The magazine is matching, but there's another SN on it that's been crossed out.

Would it have been possible to have been put in a stock at some point that had the mag cutoff, but not the volley sights? Would that be the more appropriate direction for me to look for a replacement stock?

1910 BSA
1912 LSA
1913 Enfield
1915 Enfield ( X2 )
1915 BSA
1917 LSA

All Mk. III's

Please confirm that your 1917 LSA is equipped with long range sights. Nineteen seventeen seems a late date for long range sights. Is it original, or could it have been restored?

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Originally Posted by SpikeDD

1910 BSA
1912 LSA
1913 Enfield
1915 Enfield ( X2 )
1915 BSA
1917 LSA

All Mk. III's

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Hello Bluenoser...

Finally found the 17' LSA. I remember the conversation now I had with Brian Dick about this rifle. Apparently, Enfield had an extensive FTR program and this rifle is the result of that.

LSA did make the Mk. III for a while longer than the other armories and I can't explain why the rifle still retained it's early features during a FTR but here are the particulars.

1937 view date with EFD proof near safety.
LSA marked butstock and buttplate.
LSA marked trigger and sear.
LSA marked safety.
LSA marked middle band.
17' dated LSA barrel with original number.
BSA bolt with EFD proof, numbered to rifle.
BSA rear sight leaf with EFD proof, re-numbered to rifle (one previous number lined out)
EFD marked cocking piece.
EFD marked rear sight base.
EFD proof mark on left side of receiver ring next to vent holes.
EFD marked end cap numbered to rifle.
EFD marked rear volley sight arm.
EFD marked front volley sight base ( Pointer boss has been sawed off )
Forestock numbered to rifle and barely visible, EFD marked on small plate across rear of buttstock.
EFD marked magazine and follower.
EFD marked magazine cut-off.