Savage No 4 (T)'s less scope: Less value?

I found a less scope savage T but they want top retail dollar for it and my budget is tight. Now mostly my collection is not for investment purposes and I would enjoy it, but it would burn me not to put a scope on a T that I payed extra money for.
I know most people or at least bubba would just stick a scope on it and say forget it.

It got me thinking: What does everyone here think about the specific value of the set aside non T marked savages? Granted they will be more costly than the average no4 but in the long term will the opinion of them/price be lower than a "true" T rifle only with no scope included?

One other point is that they are generally in good shape since they were retained in stores...

For any members interested in more research or background on this type of piece, check the MKL and read this article by Advisory Panel member Lance:

1942 No.4 Mk1*(T) Savage Sniper Rifle (less scope)

Regards,
Doug

It may sound a bit harsh but there is allot more than just buying a No.32 and chucking it on so to speak Peter L has expounded this theory a thousand times it has to be fitted to the rifle perfectly, I cannot remember where or when I heard/read but fitting up they had 2 thou to play with getting everything right with the pads/bracket and having the scope centered exactly on the horiz/lateral axis of the rifle bore (probably have the terminology wrong).
Either way it is a T and was deemed to be acceptable for conversion to me it is above the normal No.4 but how much you are willing to pay is entirely up to you as your the person considering acquisition but it will need to be pristine I hope it is and you reach the right choice, if it has its transit case then thats good but you do not say the price perhaps due to swoopers.

I like to think the forumers here can and do offer honest opinions and are not swoopers, and by this definition I mean(has happened to me) you say what you are interested in a price and location and others track it down get the deal and not you SWOOPERS they exist believe me they do and I for one am not one of them. By the way Merry Xmas to you all and a Happy New Year families and all me I managed xmas off this year yippee........

What is top retail dollar for the Savage?

$1000.00 US. Sorry that was not as clear as I thought. I perceive that to be about the going rate or in the range for a t with no goodies over here, aside from the ridiculously priced auctions that never sell. ( like that sporterized bsa t for $1200!!)

If I decide not to get it, I would definitely mention it here so it would go to a good home!
But I don't want the actual rifle in question to distract from the larger point.

Thanks be for the MKL, that's how I verified what it was!

Aside from the technicalities of actually mounting the scope, of which I am well aware of, thanks Cinders, my other T will be going to BDL when I get a scope and maybe for forend fitting since I know I can't do it! But that's beside the point.

I don't want all my posts to be braggadocio, but I have a case of enfield mania and I keep running into really "cool" enfields!

Having a Stevens-Savage No. 4 that was partially converted to a sniper but never had a scope fitted is frustrating for many collectors (so near and yet so far!) unless they are an advanced collector and have a complete No. 4 T set as well or are specializing in Stevens-Savage variations.

I worked in museums for 40 years and I see nothing wrong with buying a bracket and scope to mount on it FOR DISPLAY or FOR REENACTING (in which case a replica set it better). As pointed out by many people, do not expect it to shoot like a sniper with the scope on it. Think of a restored jeep - most Americans add one or more machine guns (usually dummy) to their ex-army jeeps for display even if that jeep was never fitted with one in service.

Please DO NOT forge any markings! That is criminal and permanently damages the rifle thus decreasing its value. I.e. If there is no scope SN stamped on the small of the grip do not add it!

Also, DO NOT pretend that it is a full real sniper when you show it and most importantly when you sell it or trade it someday. Be honest and say it is an incomplete sniper conversion, with a mismatched or replica bracket and scope.

ABOVE ALL, BE HONEST AND DO NOT MAKE PERMANENT CHANGES TO THE RIFLE, SCOPE OR BRACKET.

By the way, do ask the seller if the wooden Small Arms Chest No. 15 is with the rifle or if you can track back through previous owners to try to find it. These were stencilled to show the rifle had no scope and any No. 15 chest is now hard to find and is worth several hundred dollars.

I agree with Seaforth72. In fact I'd go further. The unfinished Stevens-Savage snipers are a sub-type in their own right and, in my opinion, should be collected and enjoyed as such. Remember even without the scope, they are supposed to be a cut above an ordinary N.o4. I originally planned to buy a scope-less No.4T for that very reason but then a certain doctor of Sutton Coldfield made me and offer I couldn't refuse. :-)

HA! we share the same pet peeve about MB/GPWs Seaforth, especially having done a nut and bolt correct restoration myself.
Half the reason I want the rifle or would post it here is so some bubba does not "improve" it by adding a few extra T stamps.
Now I hope this does not enrage anyone; and Seaforth I honor your long term devotion to museums, would probably kill to have your job, and I think we think alike but I have been mulling over the following generally:
Having thought about all our collections after we move on, it seems the only way to guarantee the continued long term preservation of an item for more than one generation after we're all gone is if it is expensive in the first place and continues to cost too much for the uninformed to buy or want to buy. Published work sure helps too. Some museums are real alternative routes, but some I would not trust with a pile of scrap. But no one gets to enjoy a piece in a vault!
But I do hate it when I hear people say something that basically adds up to or inherently implies "history comes from whatever a museum placard says" or "only museums should have things like uniforms or a functional tank or Gasp! Those unsafe things: Real Firearms! Always puzzling seeing how an Enfield or a BAR behind a glass case is enough for most people. Similar to the kind of person who would teach a WWII history course out of a book for twenty years but never experiment by humping through the hills with an M1 to see what it is really like I guess. Not that a bunch of Farby living historians or reenactors qualify as a better approach though! On the other hand my old professor who taught a course on Vietnam and had actually served there is definitely exempt from the former statement. That was perspective! So on a similar note, thank you for giving all of us some of your time Mr. Laidler!

If any one is looking for some good reading, anything by John Keegan is a great antidote to that sort of history.

If the bore is excellent, then I think 1000USD is a good price, and making up a shooting scoped rifle with Roger Payne bracket and original scope would be worthwhile. Not adding any markings etc as stated above.

i'm assuming that these scopeless T's were not supplied with a scope bracket matched to the bases on the receiver.
does anyone know how the bases were machined/spec'ed when fitted at H&H if not to collimate a specific base?

also, were these not scoped due to a lack of scopes or for some other reason?

I've fitted brackets and scopes to Savage No.4T rifles in the past with no problem whatsoever. The last one was with a bracket from the good Doctor and it was perfect.

Personally I can't see a problem fitting a scope and bracket as that's what it was destined for, keeping within whats already been said no forgery etc then no harm can be done and would highly recommend one of the brackets from DRP as Brian mentions.

I think a lot bigger crimes have been committed in the past regarding adding scopes to rifles..... I was talking to a apprentice with a well known Gunmakers at the week end who said some time back a chap had dropped in to see if they could remove various numbers and re engrave items to match.....

I think fitting a bracket is ok, as I have done it with my BSA Less T but I didn't stamp the scope number into the wrist, which must be tempting to some. Just leave the wrist blank I say, after all it is technically a scarcer rifle than the majority of 4Ts and of interest in it's own right. They could also be unissued and unmessed with having been kept in storage as mine appears to have been and still very much as it left the factory.

As one who has purchased a Savage with a repro scope and bracket I say go ahead and add the scope. It will do no harm to the rifle, as there are no changes to the rifle at all. I think that the experience of shooting such rifles (even if using repro scopes) is just as valid and much less likely to damage a valuable original. The price seems a bit high as I got mine for about that with scope and bracket. I do agree that you should not try to pass it off as original (that is w/scope) but you can always sell it with the proper disclosure. BTW, I also shoot 1904A4s, Garand M1D, and Mosin Nagant snipers, all of which are not original. Cannot say the shooting is any less fun. There are two classes of collectors, one who wants a original perfect rifle and never plans to shoot it and the other who wants to experience just what the soldier of the time experienced. I am in the second group.