"Unissued" Savage No.4MkI*

Picked up this little gem as a Christmas present from me to me. This looks to be one of the unissued Savage No.4MkI*'s that surfaced in Canada about 20 years ago in the original cardboard shipping boxes with the bolt in a separate waxed carton inside the box. Bore looks unfired since the factory, and when I got it the bore and action still had plenty of packing grease in it. It's now been detail stripped, de-greased, oiled, and re-assembled. It will get some light range use.

Of course, it's not all rosey, there's a small down side to the rifle. It looks to have come from a large estate sale that was being liquidated locally. Somewhere between it's last owner and the shop, the matching (usually un-numbered) bayonet, the Savage sling and the shipping boxes disappeared. (yes, I've asked, they are permanently gone, but apparently were recently with the rifle at one point according to the family friend that was brokering the sale). Also, it was apparently stored in an unheated building with a concrete floor for a year or two after the previous owner last cared for it, so there was the odd light surface rust bloom on the exposed metal. Some very careful application of a brass scraper and oiled steel wool took it all off and the finish is pretty much intact - thank goodness. Had it been left out another Canadian winter, I expect it would have started to get pitted up and been reduced to a beater/shooter. The concrete floor also added a little wear to the tang end of the buttplate. Nothing bad, but it's no longer "mint" in that spot.

The wood, of course, is basically spotless. Nice dark metal that is sand-blasted and finished (action, bottom metal, and muzzle area) - non-blasted barrel from Nock's form to just behind the front sight assembly (i.e. smooth off the lathe, but with the same finish as the rest of the rifle).

This would be a later-production Savage with 2 groove barrel, high side-shelf stock, slab-type cocking piece, 2-position flip sight.

Anyhow, these don't pop up that often anymore, so figured I'd share some pics now that it's cleaned up and preserved.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...79dd22bf-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8c6c4fe9-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...d674b18d-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...c33477e5-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...85624a59-1.jpg

Nice and clean, just like we like them. A friend of mine has a few rifles stored much like you just described. They're in a basement(cellar) in Alberta and they've long since furred over with rust. The bore of the #4 is black and the outside is red. The '98K is the same...there's a 1906 Winchester and a bit more...all the same. All coming to me in time...depressing.

I purchased one of those Savage No 4s in the sealed box probably 30 or so years ago. As I recall, I was the first to open the box and I don't recall a bayonet or sling being in the box.

Bayonets and slings (or cleaning kits etc etc) were not issued with rifles from Ordnance either

ok, well perhaps those bits are not missing then? The last couple I saw had bayonets and slings, but had been opened before, so people could have added them...?

Very nice example of a Savage No4 Mk1* & what a nice Xmas present!

Thanks for these pics. A great find.

For dating purposes, I'd estimate it's production ~ June 1943. (For those interested in Production Dates for Savage Enfields, see my post at Savage Enfield )

From a restorer's perspective, the pics show the original color of the wood before being exposed to Cosmoline or oxidized by Boiled Linseed Oil, or whatever bubba would have done with sandpaper and stain. Could you tell me the wood in the stock? (it looks like birch, not walnut, from the pics)

Does anyone have good advice on how to treat the wood on a gun like this? BLO may have been great in the battlefield, but it yellows then darkens with age. I have been using BRIWAX (clear), which I learned from my antique furniture restorations is also known as "museum wax." It's manufactured "by Appointment of the Queen" in the UK and available in the US in Ace Hardware stores. Is there anything more appropriate for gun wood? Thanks
Robert

Raw linseed oil is the authentic "treatment" and applying it is rather enjoyable- rare to work with a substance that is totally safe and you don't mind getting covered with it. For serious treatment I cut a large PVC pipe to the right length and let forends sit in it for an hour or two. RLO seems to leave a very nice finish on most everything I have tried it on, walnut, of course, but also beech, birch and arctic birch. Claven2- I have a Savage much like yours that may have come throught the same surplus route but was then taken and converted to a fake No.4T by someone with Homer Simpson level skills. Seeing yours makes me wish it could all be undone.

Ridolpho

I had it pegged as a summer '43 gun as well. The wood on this one is birch. Under the woodline, it's been oiled from the factory, but is much lighter yellowy-orange in color - likely a total heated RLO dip like the other manufacturers used. The exterior of the stock is much darker.

I honestly don't know if all the un-messed-with savages have simply oxidized in the areas that see more oxygen over these last 70 years, or if the factory applied reddish pigment of some sort. It's something I've wondered a long time, but never saw a definitive answer.

For this one, I used Ethyl alcohol on a toothbrush to clean those areas that were either dirty or had cosmolene over-smear. It did not affect the finish in any way - after 70 years, the original patina is pretty stable.

I hand-rubbed a very light coat of RLO into the wood before re-assembling and taking these photos.

To be honest though, over the years, I have found that the visual differences between RLO and BLO are really only evident after MANY applications. On factory-sanded wood, it's never that dramatic for a normal owner's level of effort. Now if the wood were sanded past 400 grit, the BLO would look shinier and Tru-Oil-like much sooner. That's a great look for a WW1 era No.1MkIII, but RLO is more period-correct for a No.4 IMHO.

Nice find! I bought one last year -- 43Cxxxxx -- from a bloke on this board. What a gem.

Do you have the rifle and bolt box that came with the rifle?

I bought one back in 2000 from Robert Paddon, he was handling an estate at the time and had some real treasures, including about 5 of these "unissued" Savage rifles. Wish I had bought one of the No3 T rifles he had, complete with scope for the princely sum of 1500Cdn. I opted for the matching No4T set instead. Should have eaten beans and ramen and purchased both.

Things were crazy back then with the long gun registry starting up. Bargains to be had for sure. We will never know how many milsurps ended up destroyed because of that crap.

Sadly no, both boxes are history.

A good find, you should be well pleased. Great photos as well, gives me something to compare to, as I have a Savage No4 Mk1* (in the 29C serial range) that is from the total other end of the spectrum - bashed and cracked wood, with appalling scrap tin looking plate used for centre bedding, and an ishy screw that appears to have been bent and rusty even before it was roughly and crookedly drilled thru forend, 95% of orig finish gone (in fact most metal parts have so little finish they look almost to be "in the white") bent and mangled sling swivels, bent trigger guard/bottom metal, vice marks on the barrel, bent ears on front sight protector, stampings/marks almost worn off on action and but socket - the list goes on, it is far from a thing of beauty :) On the up side it has no rust (its caked in what looks to be old axle grease)does have matching bolt, headspaces is good and bore seems remarkably crisp and shinny compared to rest of it, and I got it for free - I've never shot it, will do the labour of love one day and try bring it back to some semblance of serviceability.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Claven2

... over the years, I have found that the visual differences between RLO and BLO are really only evident after MANY applications. On factory-sanded wood, it's never that dramatic for a normal owner's level of effort. Now if the wood were sanded past 400 grit, the BLO would look shinier and Tru-Oil-like much sooner. That's a great look for a WW1 era No.1MkIII, but RLO is more period-correct for a No.4 IMHO.

---

Excellent observation. The issue of what finish is best for an Enfield presents a few dilemmas. I started to write a more detailed response to this post, but when I got to 5 pages in length, I decided to share the thoughts on Enfield Restoration Guidelines via a separate link: Dropbox - Laws Principles of Restoration V1.0.pdf

Any other expert opinions on my Guidelines are always welcome.

Best wishes for the New Year, Robert

Fine looking Savage! It will be a fantastic addition to your collection. I added one of these unissued '43 examples this summer as well, around the 49Cxxxx mark I believe. You can truly see the craftsmanship in these examples.

From " Armourers Guide - Rifles & Pistols"

Preservation of woodwork of Rifles
A.C.I. Number 1148

Approval is hereby given for the treatment with raw linseed oil, of the furniture of rifles in use in all stations at home or abroad, irrespective of climate.
The oil will be applied by the soldier once a month to the outside of the fore-end, butt and handguards of the rifle in the following manner :-
1) Remove all dust and dirt by wiping well with a dry rag
2) Apply a small quantity of raw linseed oil to the woodwork and rub it well into the wood, care being taken to keep the oil away from the metal parts.
3) Allow the rifle to stand for approximately three hours and then wipe off all surplus oil with a clean dry rag.

Raw linseed oil will be demanded by the units at the scale of ten pints annually for every 100 rifles.
A.C.I. 80 of 1940 is hereby cancelled

57/S.A./654 (S.D. 10)

Looks great! The color of the wood is beautiful...

So what really is the difference between RLO and BLO? Is it just the finish like mentioned?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meshuggah

So what really is the difference between RLO and BLO?

---

This is a very important question in the restoration of an old Enfield. I've been restoring antique furniture, guns, cars, and boats for over 50 years and have a good understanding of the difference in terms of how Raw Linseed Oil, Boiled Linseed Oil, and Tung Oil interact with wood over the long term.

First, Raw Linseed Oil (RLO) comes from the pressing of the Flax Seed (in Colonial times, the flax stalk was used to make Linen). RLO does bond with the pores of the wood, keeping fungus, dirt, and bugs out. Wood is very amenable to linseed oil. RLO will repel water, to a limited extent, but if wood treated with RLO is immersed in water, the water will penetrate the oil. RLO will also breakdown in sunlight, oxidizing and then drying out unless heavily mixed with pigments. For this reason, wooden boat restorers don't use RLO on their teak or mahogany. While RLO was called for by the British Armourers in wartime, they were emphatic about rubbing it all off after 3 hours because RLO does not harden (without Japan driers). In high humidity it becomes very gummy and sticky. For example, I have a 1944 Maltby Enfield that a well meaning owner coated with either RLO or BLO, and even in low humidity it is always sticky to touch and the finish is yellowing. Had the owner wiped off all the oil, then rubbed the finish hard with a terrycloth towel (creating heat on the surface), the burnishing would have stabilized the surface layer.

Boiled Linseed Oil (BLO) starts as RLO, but is subjected to high temperatures (boiling) during the refining process which enables the molecules to "polymerize," which means they link together in longer chains. Consequently BLO is more stable, and less prone to being sticky. Often BLO has chemical dryers added which ensures a hard final finish.

The biggest problem from a restorer's perspective is understanding what happens to both RLO and BLO over a 100 year period -- first it yellows, then it turns brown, then chocolate. In my Enfield Restoration Laws and Principles (see Dropbox - Laws Principles of Restoration V1.0.pdf ) I show some pictures of a Pilgrim era chest in my collection that shows the darkening process wood experiences when treated with linseed oil for 350 years.

It's so important to remember when restoring a gun, we are preserving it not just for our use, but for people hundreds of years from now.

For my own restorations, one option is to use BLO, then wipe the last coat very dry, burnish with terry cloth then coat with Briwax, to prevent the BLO from oxidizing.

The other alternative (instead of using Briwax) is to use Tung Oil (which is also made from seed) for the final coat. It will not oxidize or turn yellow then brown over the years. Just be careful to put on thin coats, and remember it too many coats will produce a very glossy finish that looks modern, versus the satin finish of the original. Tung oil is more resistant to mold, will not get gummy, and has better water repellant qualities.

Hope this helps answer the question.

Robert

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Claven2

Sadly no, both boxes are history.

---

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....7&d=1374132633

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....4&d=1374132574

---------- Post added at 03:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 AM ----------

Here is a link to a thread with several pictures of my unissued Savage. they start at post #13

Un-issued no4 enfields from 1940~1945 bull?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SMcGeown

Fine looking Savage! It will be a fantastic addition to your collection. I added one of these unissued '43 examples this summer as well, around the 49Cxxxx mark I believe. You can truly see the craftsmanship in these examples.

---

They are much better fit and finished than a similar-vintage UK-made example - there is nothing to debate there.

It's still well shy of the fit and finish of a 1943 Longbranch though. For one thing, at this point in the war, LB was still polishing the metal to 800 grit (or so) and providing a semi-gloss salt-process hot blue to all the parts, was machining those beautiful serrated a-symetrical safety levers and had not begun using any stamped and welded parts. They were also still using a high grade of black walnut for the stocks and had started (some time in 43) fitting the CMkIII sight, which is a step up from the MkII flip sight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meshuggah

Looks great! The color of the wood is beautiful...

So what really is the difference between RLO and BLO? Is it just the finish like mentioned?

---

The biggest single difference, in practical terms, is that BLO is just RLO that is treated and had some additives put in so that the oil on the outer surface of the wood will "polymerize", which basically means it will harden - not quite dry, but very hard - think of the outer film on old spruce sap.

BLO, once hard, is a little more resistant to water than RLO. If you add a lot of BLO and allow it to "dry" between coats, it can actually build up the surface, fill in grain and sanding lines, etc. Eventually it can start to look like french polish. You sometimes see No.1 rifles that were in service from pre-WW1 up to the 1940's where the surface is smooth like glass and glossy. Some people make the mistake of thinking those rifles have had a modern try-oil application, but that's not always the case. Some of those rifles, particularly the ones at training bases, have just had BLO rubbed in to them a few times a week, over many years, by LOTS of recruits. They are actually beautiful pieces of furniture to behold!

One old trick some aspiring tropes would employ to make the RSM bug the other guy, was to "bone" the surface during oilings. Basically you would take something very like a rib bone (or a real rib bone), and using the linseed oil as a sort of lubricant you would burnish the wood surface with the implement. This would remove many surface imperfections, such as sanding lines, by slightly compressing the outer wood fibres. This is a shortcut to filling in the surface of the wood with many BLO applications. I would not recommend anyone do this on a wartime No.4 rifle.

During WW2, the Commonwealth forces switched to RLO because it was cheaper, more available, and worked basically as well since idle soldiers often spend their time slathering on more oil. If you apply it regularly, both products will keep the wood just as protected.

We 'boned' all of our rifle woodwork during out Armourer training especially during trade test times. You could get it as smooooooth as a baby's bottom. Especially the old well used and oiled Bren and No4 woodwork.

Forgot to add.......... We used to use a long hardwood dowell to bone our woodwork. And to us 60's apprentices, it wasn't known as boning then. To us, boning was something you did - or at least TRIED on - with your girlfriend in Carlisle at the weekend. Not me you understand. I was too busy at chior practice and knitting scarves and socks for the needy and homeless

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Not me you understand. I was too busy at chior practice and knitting scarves and socks for the needy and homeless

---

A worthy cause.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

And to us 60's apprentices, it wasn't known as boning then. To us, boning was something you did - or at least TRIED on - with your girlfriend in Carlisle at the weekend. Not me you understand. I was too busy at chior practice and knitting scarves and socks for the needy and homeless

---

I recall coming off the firing line during Operation Linebacker in Vietnam in '72 to be refit in Subic Bay in the Phillipines. All the guys from Weapons Division boned their weapons as they headed ashore to Alongapo City. Chief Pharmacist mate Hicks stood on the gangplank making sure all the crew's weapons had functional safeties. Pauline's was their target of opportunity with the Zanzibar being their backup as favorite houses of ill repute. (There are actually pictures of Pauline's at the beginning of Officer & a Gentleman, and Top Gun, if I recall correctly). As a Junior Officer from a staid New England family, my jaw dropped to see what "Sin City" really looked like. It made Los Vegas look like Peter's choir and knitting class. But I digress from the world of Stevens-Savage and Long Branch Mk1* and Boiled Linseed Oil-- so sorry ;-)

You can sleep soundly now seaspriter as the recent visit by the Pope has hopefully washed clean the sins your pals left behind!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

You can sleep soundly now seaspriter as the recent visit by the Pope has hopefully washed clean the sins your pals left behind!

---

Yes - I guess they would be 40 odd by now with 'sins' (or should that be Sons) of their own

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Claven2

The biggest single difference, in practical terms, is that BLO is just RLO that is treated and had some additives put in

---

In the EU BLO must be just that. Not adulterated as it is in the US.

At school (1950s/60s) we used linseed oil from a tin labelled "Linseed oil". This was raw linseed oil that was issued to us byt the War Department.

I remember some time ago "he who should not be mentioned" (Ed Horton) published some of the 'Data Sheets' for the US version of BLO - it contained a number of carcinogens and should only be handled whilst wearing protective clothing and a mask.

Apparently the only 'safe' stuff in the US was that used by Artists.

I don't remember our Armourers shops being too concerned about all this dangerous stuff that is said to now litter the workshops. At senior level you had to pay lip service to it all...... you know....., nod and say the right noises in the right place and listen carefully.......... But I still just dunked my complete MGB GT V8 front crossmember and gearbox into the boiling vapour tricho tank. Followed by the rest of the mechanical gear train.......... Oh yes.......... health and safety. For one moment I had my don't-give-a-shxxometer switched off!

Reminds me of a parachuting day over Eversleigh DZ some years ago. To be honest, it looked and even felt a bit windy and the concensus was that it'd be called off. But no...., it went ahead with just a few minor casualties such as elbow or knee burns from being pulled along while trying to collapse the bloody canopy. I commented to Major Alistair XXXX another EEME Territorial, that it just seemed a bit too windy but he replied that he'd spoken to the RAF Ground Liaison Officer (the GLO) who showed him the hand held anaerometer. The vanes were wizzing around OK............ But on closer inspection, the wind speed indicator ball was missing! 'Well I never' commented the RAF GLO, '.......must have fallen out after the very successful drop. Hope the blokes enjoyed the day...... You don't think I was going to call the whole day off for a few extra knots of wind do you Alistair.....?'

Oh yes....., health and safety

And yet, it is nice to work with something completely hazard free, like raw linseed oil. For some reason we have easy access to it here in Canada with gallon size jugs available at the local hardware store. Maybe it's because we grow a lot of flax here? Check you healthfood store for flaxseed oil.

Ridolpho

It's available here too. By the gallon for me from Ace Hardware. If it's not available, just ask 'em to order it.

I have several jugs of both here in the house. Tremendously useful stuff. The wife oil paints with it too.