Re-barrel

I acquired a sporterized Winchester with a very rough but original barrel last year and after plopping it into a proper stock, I finally got it to the range. I don't have a TE gauge and the barrel just about swallows a loose bullet but mics to .308 on my calipers. It's not a beauty and I got it mainly for shooting.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...a254fb19-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...39b45ed0-1.jpg
Is it worth rebarreling and is there anything I should look for when searching for a gunsmith?

Carl

If the rifle in photo 2 shot the group in photo 1 why would you want to re-barrel it?. Looks like it's doing just fine to me. Or am I missing something?

It is that rifle. I guess my question was more of would I get more accuracy out of a criterion barrel or is this about normal? I don't want to mess with the rifle if there won't be any significant improvement. I bought it as a shooter and want the best accuracy I can get.

Carl

Take it out to 100-200-300 for grouping then make your choice.....;)

I could be wrong but I don't think there would be enough gain in accuracy to justify the cost of a new pipe or messing with the originality of the rifle. And, there's a chance a new barrel won't shoot as good as the one you have now. You probably be ahead of the game by experimenting with different loads. Your rifle certainly has lots of potential as is.
However, if you do decide to go ahead with the re-barrel I hear Chuck in Denver is the man you want to see. I have also read here on the forum that these barrels don't come off easy and sometimes require a relief cut to free things up and if the new barrel isn't installed right it may result in a cracked receiver.

How many yards?

If it almost swallows a bullet then probably nothing to be done hand load wise to improve it.

Criterion barrel would get you a shooter.

Much tougher if you want an OEM with a decent barrel.

Try some nice hunting bullets. Flat base bullets should fun fine for you.

This was at 50 yards. I don't want to risk cracking the receiver so I'll try some other loads first and see what happens at 100 yards before I do anything. Thank you all for the input!

Carl

I am sure there are qualified personnel that can replace the barrel without toasting the reciever and if you go that way why not have it tuned up all round it is only when people take their weapons to those that may profess to know the drill with military weapons and in the end toast your rifle then it becomes a sad case of litigation which normally results in all care no responsibility statements.
So have a go with your reloads and let the forumers know how you went I would not adjust the front sight just yet until you find out what shoots where it is rather a pleasing outing spending a full day testing loads and getting the best from the rifle makes it all worth while.

As a postscript ~ We are counting down to the 25th April 2015 as it will be 100 years to the day the ANZACS went ashore and became the stuff of legends, like I have said many times here I doff my hat to all those that have served and continue to serve in any service from any country that protects our freedom we enjoy all over the world. :thup:

First thing I do with a new toy is pull it from the stock, clean everything and then smear red lipstick on the metal. Put'er all back together and see how the bedding is and where the stock is making contact with the barrel. Then I go from there.

This rifle appears to shoot fine. Really though you need to shoot it at 100yds to get the best idea of what's happening. 100yds is the standard. Remember also these weren't designed to be sub moa rifles, if your getting 2" groups at 100yds your doing real good. My 2c's.

If interested I've got an original RIA barrel in 30'06. All measurements and careful examination tells me the wear is negligible. Bore bright and shiny. Lands and grooves very sharp. Muzzle perfect. Original finish 98%. Let me know if interested.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...44df2696-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...a2783bde-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...540667e8-1.jpg
http://i568.photobucket.com/albums/s...ps4bff4088.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6e857110-1.jpg

Keith.herrington@aol.com

Barrel is no longer available.
Keith

VERY few RIA M1917 barrels were ever made. Easily a very rare barrel. It was a project that never got started and was cancelled shorty after starting.

that looks pretty good for 50yds. You should get <2MOA on a good barrel and vertically it is. redo at 100yds.

---------- Post added at 08:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 PM ----------

The receivers are very strong, Ive never heard of a cracked one while putting in a new barrel!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ssj

The receivers are very strong, Ive never heard of a cracked one while putting in a new barrel!

---

Eddystone manufactured rifles have the unfortunate reputation of cracking when swapping barrels. The belief is, Eddystone tightened the barrels on with machinery which way over tightened the barrel. The problem showed itself when the the rifles where rebarreled in WW2. I think? SOP is to make a relief cut when rebarreling Eddystones, maybe Chuck or one of the other guys can chime in.

never seen a Eddystone with a crack, not saying that they wouldnt.
since all 3 makers used the same steel from the same supplier i dont know why one would crack easier then the others.
i have seen a few winchesters with cracks,
and all were from using the wrong tools, or using the right tools the wrong way..
all are cracked in the same place, from the same reason.
iv rebarreled hundreds of 1917s and have yet to crack one doing so..

Thanks Chuck, That clears things up for me. Can't tell you how many times I've read and heard Eddystone's are prone to cracking. My guess would be it's because people have visions of machinery meant for Locomotive building being used to build rifles. That or it was started by a Winchester snob!!..

barrel install was done by hand,, by one man...and hand tools..

I believe that chuckindenver once posted a video of barrels being installed on M1917's. They were doing it with a barrel vice and an action wrench by hand, not a special hydraulic machine as is often reported.
FWIW

M1917 vs M1903 Accuracy
I have often wondered how the accuracy of a service grade M1917 compared with a service grade M1903. I have only seen the results of one such test and it was relatively inconclusive since the sample size was so small and different ammunition and different numbers of shot were fired with the various rifles. I believe that when the National Matches were fired in 1918, it was requested that all rifles be of Remington Manufacture. In the test cited above the Remington was more accurate than the Winchester fired in the same test.
*In the test described above twelve 10 shot groups were fired with a Remington M1917 in service configuration and gave an average of 3.78 inches at 100 yards. Ten shots with 1939NM ammo gave a 2.72 inch group. The remaining shots were fire with a mixture of FA 1931 and 1932 M1 ball ammo.
* One M1903 in service configuration was fired fourteen 10 shot groups with an average group size of 3.71 inches. Six groups fired with 1932NM ammo resulted in an average of 3.98 inches at 100 yards.
*In the Winchester M1917 in service configuration six 10 shots groups with M1 ball averaged 4.22 inches. With 1932NM ammo the average group was 4.22 inches at 100 yards.
Again the number of shots fired and the number of rifles tested was so small as to render the results inconclusive. These tests appear in the January 1940 AMERICAN RIFLEMAN.
FWIW

We should also consider serviced rifle to service rifle.

In that regard I think the 1917 wins hands down as it has a far superior sight system than the 1903.

So for field work and aimed fire the 1917 would be superior (IMNSHO)

The 1903 would be handier for a very active combat situation with quicker acquisition and quicker working bolt.

Do not forget-the M1903 was a compromise. Originally the US service rifle was issued in two configurations: the carbine for cavalry and the rifle for infantry. The original Krag rifle had a 30 inch barrel and a 22 inch barrel for the carbine. Ordnance decided to issue only one rifle, therefore the M1903 was designed with the 24 inch barrel as a compromise. In the early part of the twentieth century, the bayonet was considered to be the most important part of an infantry mans equipment to be supplemented by the rifle. To compensate for the short M1903 rifle, the ordnance department issued a 16 inch bayonet. Since it was common practice to enter battle with a fixed bayonet, I do not know that the M1903 would be any handier that a M1917, though I believe that the 1917 bayonet also had a 16 inch blade. Most infantry rifles of the era had 30 inch barrels, the exception being the SMLE (25.2 inches). The GEW 98 in rifle form had a 29 inch barrel. To the French “elan” and the bayonet would turn the tide of battle, hence the three shot magazine on the French rifle and the 31.2 inch barrel.
The battle sight on most WWI rifles were set for about 400 to 500 yards as tactics called for firing with the rifle at these ranges and then closing with the bayonet. Most army generals ignored the Machine Gun to the tragedy of many WWI troops. As late as 1917 the French launched a cavalry charge against German equipped machine gun groups-with predictable results – massacre.
Most US troops were equipped with the M1917 and most of the green US troops (there were only a small number of trained riflemen, Regular army and USMC) had very little experience with bolt action rifles (the lever action Winchester type was the most popular action up until WWI) so learning to operate a cock-on-closing would not have been any thing they would have been uncomfortable with.
FWIW

Thanks for the offer of the barrel. I may take you up on it. I got to the range finally. I took some LC 52, Federal 150gr SPs, and my Hornady hunting ammo. Of course the old gal liked the most expensive stuff best.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1a8d0f67-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...207625d7-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...15b4a17d-1.jpg

The one concern is the neck of the cases. The old stuff split and the newer rounds look like some gas is coming back. Is the throat eroded to the point of concern? I don't see this on my newer gun or my 03. Left to right is LC, Federal, and Hornady.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...754ba3e1-1.jpg

Disclaimer: I am using a front rest. There's no way I could pull that off any other way!

I doubt your chamber is at fault. Brass will get thin and do that to spite you. Gash bin it and get another one out. I have that happen all the time with one type of cartridge or another...

... stop worrying. The Lake city appears to be way past its "Bang by..." date. The dropped shot in the Federal group is probably "driver error" caused by the usual difficulty of seeing exactly where the tip of the blade is, especially if the light is varying. And the Hornady group is just fine. You need to shoot a lot more to decide which type of ammo has the edge.

Permitting ourselves to overlook the low shot on group 2 as anomalous, we have a service rifle that shoots 2 MOA at 100 yards. And the cases look OK to me. The case neck sits in the front end of the chamber, not the throat. So I don't see how a worn throat can hurt the cases.

And from my own practice and competition experience with an M1917, you are not going to get much below 2 MOA with a service rifle unless you have 1) perfect vision or 2) use a scope.

You appear to have a fine service rifle. It would be a grave error to re-barrel it unnecessarily.

SO DON'T WORRY, BE HAPPY:dancingbanana:

just practice and enjoy!


P.S: If the throat was seriously worn, all groups would be lousy. So it isn't.

It does shoot very good with the expensive ammo so it would seem the MW is good as well. TE can be off more and still ok.

Even with the scope mount I can't shoot that well most days (SK non intrusive so not as solid, tight or cheek rested if it was a drilled and tapped receiver which would also wreck the rifle value)

Handloads should do well.

It would be interesting to get those TE and MW measurements if he can get a gauge (or a known bullet in the muzzle so we can see how much it does swallow it, mostly curious on that regard as the accuracy is so good.

Mine all do a bit of blow by , it may be a factor of a bit loose chamber for the military rifles though not as loose as the 303s.

"It would be interesting to get those TE and MW measurements if he can get a gauge (or a known bullet in the muzzle so we can see how much it does swallow it, mostly curious on that regard as the accuracy is so good."


Take a loaded cartridge and "paint" the bullet with a felt-tip pen. Stick the bullet into the muzzle. If the case mouth contacts the muzzle, you really have a loose muzzle. If there is still some bullet showing, it's OK. Twiddle the cartridge round a few times and the muzzle will leave a bright line on the inked bullet. If you are very, very careful, you can measure the diameter at this line and have a fair idea of the bore (lands) diameter at the muzzle. But I always apply creative laziness, and simply reckon that if the case mouth does not touch the muzzle, it is OK - the lands will "bite" the bullet right up to the muzzle.

Ditto at the chamber end. Close the bolt on an EMPTY chamber and insert a meter/yard length of brass rod (6mm or 1/4" is handy) down to touch the bolt face. Mark the rod where it shows out of the muzzle. Now insert the bullet of your choice into the chamber and push it forwards with a pencil or whatever comes to hand until it is sitting against the throat. The rod will have been pushed somw way out of the muzzle. Mark it as before The difference between the two markings gives you the maximum cartridge OAL that you can use with that bullet with out having any free-flight. If that length permits the bullet to be seated at least 1 caliber into the case, then the throat is also usable.

A quick, simple method, that I use for "on the spot" evaluation of rifles. Not need whatsoever for fancy, expensive gauges. It tells you whether your bullet will work in your rifle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Ditto at the chamber end

---

There's another somewhat simpler and just as precise method for the determining max cartridge OAL. Color the bullet shank with the felt tip pen up to where the ogive begins and insert it about 1/32'' into a case that's had it's mouth pinched or sized just enough to keep the bullet in place. Now chamber and extract the dummy round, push the bullet out of the throat with a cleaning rod if necessary and very carefully reinsert the bullet in the case down to the where the pen coloring wasn't scraped off and measure the OAL with a gauge or calipers. This method will also show how much or little of the bullets shank is still in the case mouth when it touches the riflings.

Excellent suggestion!

Like this...

Attachment 59553

I have the Steven Mathews gauge for 1903 (there was an entity called Stone Axe engineering he was part of or ran but no longer, its purely Steve only) .

Discussing with him on how it applies to the 1917 and he says the MW is spot on (within the gauge accuracy limitation) and the TE is pretty close but not calibrated to a 1917. He is not in the greatest health and does runs of these as he can.

Its a nicely done setup in as it combines the MW and TE in one gauge (also M1 and M14 versions available)

I do not have any interest in Steves work other than appreciate for a low cost tool that does what I needed so I am not in any way benefiting from passing this information on.

Cost is $54 I believe and that include shipping.

Its not a military precision gauge, maybe more precise than some of the suggestions here but Steve specifically lists it as a hobbiest gauge so its an indicator not absolute spot on definitive.

Accuracy is .005 per his statement and accuracy ability in making these.

If you are into these I think its a worth while investment, I carry mine to all gun shows and any LGS I am at as it provides a pretty quick assessment of what I am looking at and for.

Its also resolved some internet purchase questions, one in particular was a 1917 barrel that the TE was really bad but the MW was good (blanks probably shot through it as that is a signature of that type)

Steves email is:

fatmatthews2@hotmail.com

His mailing address is: Steven Mathews - P.O. Box 125 - Scott, Ohio 45886

Thank you all for the help! I'm going to play with the bullet methods first but I definitely need to look for some gauges because these old guns are so much fun that I'll probably find others I can't pass on.

Carl

Stick with flat-based bullets, preferably proper, flat-based "military" (FMJ) types. That is what it was designed to shoot. Slinky boat-tails just reduce the bearing surface and encourage gas-bleed in a "pre-loved" barrel.

Keep an eye out for batches of "pulled" (or NEW) 150gn ex-mil projectiles.

I certainly wouldnt be concerned, my Eddystone M1917 throws the bullets at the target sideways. So seeing they are hitting the target right way is definatley an advantage. Mine has beatiful wood, original barrel all markings are "E", I would give my left arm if it would group like this.

Try high quality (Speer, Nosler) 150gr. flat base hunting bullets. They will run just fine for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by H.e.s.h

my Eddystone M1917 throws the bullets at the target sideways

---

Steve may have it right...if your bullets are long they will have a hard time stabilizing. A shorter bullet may still work.

Already tried that, even tried some .311 in various weights. No the barrel is un serviceable, there is rifling there but you can drop a .308 in at the muzzle and without much effort it will freefall down the tube!!

Yup, that's hammered.

A real pity as its the original tube, the overall condition of the rifle is excellent, so looking for a new barrel, may have to settle for a Criterion?

I'm not so sure settle is the right word...then you'll have an excellent shooter. As is, it's a frustration.

No disrespect to Criterion intended, I was torn with keeping it original and re-barrelling. I expect that it will loose credence as a collectable and become a shooter? For what its worth, I will keep the original tube, its a pity such a well looked after rifle has been "shot out"

You are correct, it will no longer be a collector. Maybe chuckindenver has a suitable original barrel around? You should PM him...the other school of thought is the inside doesn't matter and as long as it's original it's fine. Then you buy a parts gun for a shooter.

If I lived in the US that may be an option, it seems that getting anything shipped from the US is a problem. So if I was getting the groups that the OP was getting I would be blisfully happy and content to leave well enough alone.

You're right and I didn't look at that part. I'm in Canada so we have the same problem...sort of take it or leave it.

Deleted, answered already