1943 No1 mk3* Lithgow SMLE have some questions

Hello again.

Like I stated in my long branch post, this is one of my first two enfields. Purchased at the same time. I am very new to these rifles and learned a lot in my other post. So lets see if I can get some similar help here. :)

This Lithgow has definitely seen some use. Im not sure how original this one is so I welcome your opinions.

The numbers (or lack there of) do not match. The receiver number does not match the number on the rear sight or the butt. The mag, bolt, and bayo boss (correct term?) look to have had their numbers scrubbed. The butt says R MA 6/47 so is it safe to say the parts were scrubbed then as well as adding the butt? :dunno:

I was so attracted to this rifle because of all the brass and the number of markings on the butt.
Butt markings are as follows:
C.M.F.
2.M.D.
The A.C. and the 'roo in a shield above III.
HV
R MA 6/47
...and this must be the original serial and date of the butt.
41952
8/16

The butt also has an H on the top under the cocking piece. Does that denote heavy? sniper butt? :dunno: Was the rifle in the CMF or just the butt?

The barrel is also marked with 6 '47. The rear sight guard is marked MA '42.

There also lots of different letter marked pieces. I think I got them all in the pics. Were these all from just a heavy refurb in 1947 or did someone piece it together? The aussie marks are MA and OA right?

It also looked to be a rifle that was dipped in yellow paint but someone removed it at one point. Theres still specks of it here and there, especially when you disassemble the front end. The dipping in paint was to easily clarify between calibers correct?

This rifle came with a charger clip loaded with 1919 head stamped ammo as well.

Anybody have any insight for me regarding this rifle, markings, or questions?

Thanks in advance! :cool:

So many questions, here are a few answers:

I would say it is a parts gun see the JJCO NY on the side of the receiver, they brought up huge stocks from Australia and either sold as was (usually war stores) or made up rifles from parts.

CMF was Citizens Military Forces
2MD is New South Wales
MA Lithgow, OA Orange, BA Bathurst all dinky die
Barrel is a 47
Receiver is a 43
It could of course be an FTR in 1947 and then issued to the CMF in 2MD who knows now.
1MD = Queensland, 2MD= New South Wales, 3MD= Victoria, 4MD= South Australia, 5MD = Western Australia, 6MD = Tasmania and 7MD = Northern Territory. So if you enlisted in the Army in say Tasmania after WW2 you Regimental Number would have 6 as the first number pre WW@ it would have the prefix TX.

An update,

Yellow denotes the rifle was safe to fire but not up to military standards, usually found on CMF and Cadet rifles. The serial number on the but if correct makes it a pre 1918, don't know where that came from, old stocks at Lithgow during the FTR?
R MA 47 FTR date at Lithgow.
HV set up for MKVII ammunition.
That's me finished I'm sure some of the more knowledgeable Aussie members can fill in better than I have.

While I was in Australia, the yellow bands indicated a DP rifle......... Rifles left plain/service were the rifles used for live firing

Hmm..

Is there a difference between "not up to military standards" and "drill purpose only/not for live fire"?

Wouldn't there be markings on the rifle denoting that it was DP?

If the rifle is DP or not safe for live fire, then was somebody trying to hide that fact by removing the yellow paint? Does not look recent nor did they do a good job.

I'll be bummed if the rifle is unsafe for shooting...

To save going through all of the DP threads again I suggest that you take a couple of hours to look some of the relevant threads up. It's not unknown - or beynd the wit of man - to disguise a DP rifle as something better.

There have been posts suggesting the yellow paint indicates use by cadets? with some possible minor mechanical issue but safe to fire? I have a '44 that shows traces of it that is virtually brand new in most respects but has a restamped bolt that gave the previous owner trouble. The bore, in particular, is among my best and, with bolt issues sorted, it's a very accurate rifle. Like Mr. Laidler says, have a good look at old threads.

Ridolpho

Rifles issued to Cadet Units in Australia had 3 colour Codes:

Green = Safe to fire up to Service Standard,

Yellow = Safe to fire not up to Service Standard, and

Red = Not To Be Fired DP Only.

From memory the RED painted rifles were rendered innocuous for obvious reasons.

While I was in the Regular Army I never saw any Regular Army issued weapon with any paint on it. Perhaps and PL would know it was a RAEME Repair marking, but they were never issued out to us (what would be the point). When Cadets changed to the L1A1 they were all serviceable shooters (Yellow) that I am aware of.

I don't see anything here that gives this rifle away as being a parts gun. Yes the R over MA over the date on the butt indicates a refurb and the lack of serial numbers is normal for a rifle refurbed at this time, although the bolt would have been numbered to the action in service. Forends, barrels, sights and nosecaps were mostly not numbered on these 46/47 refurbs and lithgow never numbered magazines. Mismatched rear sights just means its reused and perfectly normal for a refurb. The butt is mismatched because it is also a reused part and all the detail and numbers are off the previous rifle that was converted to H pattern during the 30's most likely. As said previously, the yellow paint indicates cadet rifle. Shame its been removed but no big deal. Put it back on and restore it to cadet rifle if it bothers you.

Ok...

So I've been reading for a couple hours. There seems to be no definitive answer about what the yellow paint 100% means.

So yes a cadet rifle... Does that mean it was DP or EY? From what I read, no. I also read that the paint could have been applied to denote a rusted or pitted barrel. This barrel is pitted. The barrel mark is 5 '47 and the butt refurb number is 6/47. Does that make sense?
I couldn't find any clarity on this but, was the paint added at the repair depot when refurbing? Or did they paint them elsewhere/at other times?

I also read here that yellow meant "safe for live fire with occasional ball ammo". What exactly does that mean?


The crown passes the bullet test but I still need to get the head space checked. If the headspace is good I think it will be safe to shoot.

Adding the paint to restore it is a cool idea...


I also am thinking like Homer. I think it is in the same shape it was in from the refurb in 47 minus the paint.

I am assuming the DP rifles are worth much less than a non yellowed rifle. Probably why someone removed it at one point?

When in the cadets at Perth Modern School in the 70's our rifles were Yellow and Red which we paraded with and our range rifles were painted Green but the latter were never used on parades only when we went for range practice to Swanbourne or Bushmead rifle ranges.
I will just pop out the back and try and find one in this lot I have in my shed! 24 layers of them :yikes: I wish...