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Well I figured I'd start a new thread to actually talk about the barrels themselves.
I'll post pictures and updates on what I find here.
Last night I slugged the bore so I can confirm bore dimension. .3135-.303 Please note that measuring the slug can be very difficult so I'm gonna say there is possibly a +/-.0005 accuracy variance.
5 groove barrel
Checked front sight fitment with 2 front sights and both fit very nice with one needing a few light taps with a rubber mallet.
Front sight fitment......... Or do you mean the fit of the foresight block band onto the barrel?
Yes the front sight base/block band onto the barrel.
Tried 3 bayonets tonight and all fit. 2 were tight with one 2nd variation fitting fairly loose.
Did run into one issue though. The barrel is easily over timed with the barrel being threaded hand tight onto the action. Looks like I need to either find a new action to use or find some breaching washers.
Does any one have any leads on some washers?
I wondered when this indexing might rear its ugly head. And this IS going to be a problem or a concern for all. You will all have to accept that the question of over or under indexing was common across the board when we berreched up barrels. The difference is that we had a rack of 20 or so new and perfect but used barrels and tried them all until you found the closest one that you could breech up tight with.
There was an underturn/hand tight spec (of 17 degrees springs to mind but don't quote me.......) but after a few times, you just got to know what barrel would breech up well.
There is an answer and I mention it in an earlier thread. AND IT'S NOT SWAGE THE EDGES!
On the other hand I could have told them all this for the cost of a phone call!
I,m glad you mention this Robert, as Peter mentions above, I,m guessing a lot of folk are thinking it will be a case of " take out the wrapper, breech up and all is well "Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwsgunsmithing
Regarding washers I had quite a few but these were made the same width (+ a few thou) of a parting off tool I had, recovering a few good barrels at one point and knowing that the chances of the timing not being correct on another action I made a relief cut on the barrel (also made it easy for removal)
After the barrels were cleaned up it was a case of measuring the gap with the barrel in the correct position on the donor action and grinding the washers to suit (I was lucky having access to a surface grinder at the time).
**Still an easy job to do but without a surface grinder, the machining has to be precise or it will be a labour of love with a surface plate and grinding paste.........
**(I mention the surface plate etc, because its my preferred method, it is easy to take the required meat off the barrel, but by the time you set it back up in the lathe etc to take the X amount off, set the barrel back up in you blocks fit washer plus action and find your still out can be a PITA..... and not wanting to teach folk how to suck eggs but if your doing something of this nature make sure all the bits and your measuring equipment are in the same place etc, temperature can have an amazing effect on metal and measurement ):D
There's a much easier way Big Duke............ Incidentally, this isn't a new issue at all. It was a well discussed issue for ages and that's why, if you could, you'd always try barrels with the D-in-a-circle mark first. They were ........... Anyway!
Understand the easier way Peter, it was just the way I had used the parting off tool..... made sense at the time to make a few oversized washers etc, could be an interesting thread though as I,m waiting to hear the word "shim" .....
You mean the dreaded word 'shim'!
I was just being polite, one question (can't remember if it has been mentioned) for Robert and others in the Know are these barrels with an undersized chamber or finished chamber ??Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Before I get to far I need to be clear here.
1- These are prototype barrels and by no means are they the final rendition or finish product that Criterion will be selling. They sent a select few a barrel or two to check out and get some of the bugs worked out.
2- I have saami spec headspace gauges. Brian over BDL pointed out to me that I need to be using a .074 gauge. So I added a few pieces of tape to the back side of the nogo to get me out to .073. I know it's not the most precise method but does work in a pinch.
The chamber must be finished cut because with the action in place and checked with a headspace gauge (.073) it starts to close but doesn't go all the way and this is with a #0 bolt head.
I'm honestly going to suggest to Criterion they need to make it so the barrel is under indexed more and allow the gunsmith to chuck up the barrel in the lathe and face the barrel back where needed. I really feel they're going to have a bunch of headaches with customers out there who think this will fit and index on there action right out of the box and it's a lot easier and cheaper to just have to set the barrel back then to find and purchase some breeching rings. Your thoughts?
Peter is exactly right about learning to "feel" them after doing enough over time. The ability to select fit bolt heads and barrels is such a pertinent part of working Lees. Unfortunately, most of us don't have a large supply of either to select fit from. Because of this, a happy medium will have to be adopted in new barrel production. It will entail skimming the shoulder on the barrel to bring them up to 17 degrees if the under turn is excessive. The only option for overturn are using correct breeching washers which I've already discussed with Criterion and they can probably make them in house. I was asked if there a list out there somewhere of the sizes that were used on the 7.62 L8, L39, L42 and commercial variant conversions as done at RSAF Enfield?
Does your bolt close on the .064 GO gauge Robert? Unless I'm misunderstanding, from what you posted here the gauge starting to close on .074 NO GO, (.073 in your case), but not closing all the way is perfect. The .064 Gauge must pas too and "Bob's your Uncle".
I have two of the barrels here gents. I'm sorting them out too but haven't installed one yet. I have one dedicated receiver with a matching bolt that I'll use to build a rifle and test both barrels thoroughly.
Yes it does close on the .064 go gauge.
The problem with the breeching washier is the barrel will still have to be set back (if done per Peter's article) anyway. So why not just add, say 20 thou to it and allow the smith to remove what is needed.
If they decide to make washers what sizes will they do? Are they going to try and do a .010 washer or thinner? I think there asking for trouble doing that. I also feel they're trying to do "too much" with the barrels and trying to make them work on too many of the receivers out there when in fact they might actually only work on less than half.
On the other hand, why not use the selection of L1A1 rifle breeching up washers readily available. They're the right dia and hardness too I'd have told them all this for the cost of a call!
But you would still have to face the barrel off anyway.
Unless they plan for you to use the washers and push the shoulder forward more so that you can buy a small assortment of washers and index that way.
It would work but would require you to find and buy a assortment of them. Doing a quick search I only found a couple of places that offered any washers and some sizes weren't even in stock.
A LOT depends on the accuracy of the thread "indexing".
As I also understand it, there were "new" barrels and "replacement" barrels. The difference was an offset in the thread "start" by several degrees to allow for "crush" of the breech treads / body face that occurred during the "factory" barrel installation".
I have seen the note on a barrel drawing; just trying to find it.
As for "short-chambering": The .303 is a rimmed case, the most important thing is to have the rear face of the threaded tenon in such a position that it provides the correct "headspace" with a "correct" body, bolt and preferably a No ")" bolt head.
The No4 breeched up (for torque and "indexing") on the FRONT face of the body. If that surface is awry in any way, all bets are off. Earlier patterns of Lee Enfield breech up INTERNALLY, using the rear face of the TENON engaging the inner collar at the rear of the thread in the body, just like a Mauser 98 is SUPPOSED to.
If you have a No4 body that has "defects" on that front face, you have two choices:
Put it in the scrap box,or,
Mount it on a close fitting mandrel that has a thread to engage the body, and face off said body in a lathe, like the custom rifle folk do with errant Remington 700s. (After they ensure the threads are within tolerances, of course). THEN you may need to start looking for breeching washers or a custom barrel. How much do you want to spend?
Back from the "crypt"!
An interesting Oz connection.
Drawing No. U-52831, Issue 8. Drawn by K. Sankey, 12 March 1965. (Reason for redraw: Chamber re-designed (Bullet Leede. (sic)).
This is a drawing of a VERY post WW2 barrel for a rifle that saw rather limited service in Oz.
Bayonet lugs are NOT shown in the drawing. Thus these barrels are NOT for "Service" use, but for the Rifle Clubs, which, at the time were still very much a part of the "heirarchy" of defence: (Regulars, CMF (Reserves) and Rifle Clubs), as defined by the Defence Act of the time.
Anyway, there is a "note" in big, bold text that states:
FOR ALL REPLACEMENT BARRELS, POINT 'A' MUST BE RETARDED BETWEEN 1O DEG AND 15DEG TO COMPENSATE FOR BODY DEFORMATION.
The datum (point "A"), for the breech-thread start is defined as follows:
A point on the breeching shoulder, 10deg, 8min above the horizontal, on the RHS of the shoulder and at the major diameter of the thread.
To whit:
Major Dia. 1.000 / 0.9937 " dia. CREST OF THREAD TO START AT "A".
FORM: WHITWORTH.
So, this is NOT a "service" barrel, but I doubt very much that its specifications, apart from the deletion of the bayonet lugs, would deviate far from anything produced in Canada or Britain.
Has anyone ever seen a drawing (or a sample) for a "service" barrel with the provision for thread-start "variation" in Canada or the UK?
Following an armorer's processes for fitting a one size fits all barrel to a box car full of old receivers is not going to work.
Sure you can shim or use headspace rings. Why not buy a barrel with an extra .040 or so of shoulder?
Oh the headspace might be off? Well it might be off anyway. Fix it with a chambering reamer and bolt heads.
You will get a better installation if you can use a mandrel through the bolt race to permit facing the receiver off square to the threads.
Large numbers of components and the use of a scrap bin allow armorers to swap parts and fix most problems at the tax payer's expense.
These new barrels are being funded by many individuals that have to make one barrel work on one rifle. You will probably need a lathe...
This new barrel project is simply making a mountain out of a molehill. The answer really is very simple, believe me......, having breeched up one or two No4's and 5's in my life. All hold fyour fire (if you'll excuse the pun.....) for a while. I am in discussion with the makers now and the answer is being implemented, probably as we speak...........
I would say " certainly need a lathe plus the finish reamer"Quote:
Originally Posted by ireload2
Nope......... Much simpler than that big Duke. The PROBLEM won't be the new barrels but with knackered bodies or bodies with worn out locking shoulders.
The most important criteria with the new barrels will be this.
If you cannot CHS your rifle with the OLD barrel, you won't be able to CHS it CORRECTLY with the new one. It's as simple as that.
The next thing to remember is that the new barrel is only a cure for a shot/worn out existing barrel
chs??Quote:
Originally Posted by peter laidler
CHS = Cartridge Head Space
Cartridge Head SpaceQuote:
Originally Posted by Rwsgunsmithing
This will be an interesting project.
It already is. Cleaning SAAMI specifications and such from folks working on service Lees has been a lifetime endeavor for me! Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration since I shot rifles of my own for many years without knowing any of this or even owning a gauge. Never had a problem either. It's the last 20 years where I learned WTF was going on! I was told recently that I work Lees the exact opposite of all common sense training to thousands of gunsmiths graduated from the Colorado School of Gunsmithing. That's a real scary thought. I'll be real disappointed if the engineers at Criterion deviate from basic MoD specifications on these things and make them way more complicated than they have to be. I think if they stick to the KISS theory, all will be well. I reckon we'll see.
Brian
My suspicion is that with the deep interest in this project and the involvement of people like Brian and Peter, I'm very confident that Criterion will get this "right".
I also understand that the next barrel in line will be for a No.1. Hopefully they can also be convinced to consider a "heavy barrel" as well (I did drop off a barrel taken from a MLE with the early knox form).
If they don't deviate some from the MOD specification there will be some rifles the barrels cannot be fitted to. Then people will be back to using rings to take up the space at the shoulder when the metal on the shoulder could have been left long.
With the exhaustion of British military ammo the only ammo close to fitting the huge chambers well is the stuff made by PPU. The #4 barrels would benefit from having smaller diameter chambers unless you just want everything as mud proof as an original. With the large chamber case life will be shortened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
what do you mean get it right? two or three other manufacturers produce barrels for these rifles. have not heard any complaints about barrel installations re: their product, other than price and importation limitations. so whats to get right? I've been following this for over a year and at this point the only thing left to "get right" is the time line for putting a barrel in the hands of the customer. Before Christmas I wanted 3 of them. Now...? If somebody needs a barrel to take some measurements from I will gladly contribute that.
I do agree that saami specs take president over british chamber specs. I don't get more than 3 reloads from any brass. but that's an easy fix and cant possibly justify they ongoing wait.
3 reloads? what are you running at? 38~40gr ADI 2208 should see 10+ reloads. 43gr+ adi2208 and yes 3 or less but I wouldnt bet a re-barrel will fix it, its the action stretching at excessive loads. Now the gun in question has a tight chamber in a Lithgow aftermarket H barrel. I also have "milspec" barrels, cant say I have seen any difference in case life between them. In terms of problems, going back 50 years here in NZ target shooters would re-barrel their no4s every 1 or 2 years but had buckets of heads to fix any chs issue. These days a 2 or a 3 head for a no4 is very hard to get, hence finishing the chamber to suit the head you have makes sense, that means more cost. if we can get back to a "simple" bolt up that will take Hundreds of $s off the cost of a re-barrel.
---------- Post added at 11:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:33 AM ----------
"With the exhaustion of British military ammo the only ammo close to fitting the huge chambers well is the stuff made by PPU" I dont agree with you here. The military ammo is disposable, hence the fit didnt really matter how much it expanded one time, it was never going to be reloaded. I do agree on PPU being good brass, Im finding it lasts better than 1943 stamped brass reloaded for the same gun(s) and its quite cheap.
I run 46.5gr ADI 2209 with RP (Remington) brass and Lee collet dies - I am up to about 8 reloads in my No.4 with a standard chamber. The 2209 feels softer and is slightly lower pressure than 2208. Worth a try for case life problems.
its NOT excessive loads. If it was Why fix it by replacing the barrel?
I don't do excessive loads
its the looser chamber tollerances of the No.4 mk2's.
Been searching for Remington brass but its always out of stock.
any way.... Yea ....could have bought 3 of them at any point up to just before Christmas.
There is something else wrong that's causing you to get only three reloads in a late issue No.4Mk.2 chamber. I've never had that problem and I've been reloading the .303 British since I was 16 years old, (I'm 51 now). The worst I've ever seen is 4 or 5 and that was using full length sized, old brass, (WWII dated WRA and Dominion), loaded to service specs in a well used, 1943 Long Branch No.4. I suggest you look at the brass you're using now and the method you're using to resize it. Rim thickness could be a factor too. Stop blaming the rifles. It's modern mythology that ALL the chambers in service Lees regardless of vintage are that oversized or "huge" as posted earlier. You might encounter one that falls into that category but I'd bet if you inspect it with the correct gauges, you'll find it worn beyond the acceptable limits. The market here is flooded with rifles that have been very well used so it's to be expected just the same as as it would with a US 1903, M1 Rifle or any vintage military firearm. There can be variance in good condition barrels too, especially in wartime production rifles from multiple manufacturers on two continents, (maybe three continents but I'm not sure the South Africans made barrels during wartime). I've had and shot quite a few used Lees over the years and the loosest chamber I've seen was still fine if you fire formed and neck sized the brass. I guarantee that if these new barrels are made to SAAMI instead of the original MoD spec, it's going to cause problems. Many are going to want to use receivers that are problematic to start with and possibly worn past the point of no return. Those who think that a new barrel to tighter SAAMI specs is going to fix those problems are simply wrong. It ain't going to happen. There are reasons these rifles were designed the way they are as original. Reloaders expecting to get 10+ reloads in the rimmed .303 or most other rimmed cartridges for that matter with full service spec loadings are living in dreamland anyhow in my humble opinion. As far as a time frame on the barrel production, the few of us here that are trying to help Criterion along have no control whatsoever as to time frame for production barrels. They are a good company and are trying to get it right. Make sure you take notice of the advice offered by our reloading friends in New Zealand, Australia, England, South Africa and Canada. Most that I know had never seen or heard all the absolute crap concocted here in the USA regarding loose chambers and bad headspace in the Lee platform until the internet age came upon us. I fear that many will never change their way of thinking either after 20+ years in the trade reading it and listening to it. I'll continue to try. My steel helmet is close by too! INCOMING!!!! ;)
or Ihave readQuote:
Originally Posted by crusty
I am in that sort of order or a bit more 10+ with 2208 and I also use the Lee neck collect die. Several people have commented or I have read that the 2209 might have better accuracy so its something I am going to try in the future for sure. I just need to get the best out of the 2208 first then try the 2209.
---------- Post added at 03:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:39 PM ----------
"its the looser chamber tolerances of the No.4 mk2's" is this documented? can you point me at teh URL/reference? Everything I have read suggests the the mk2s were generally far better made than the mk1s, even showing a slight accuracy improvement. Certainly the 3 no4 mk2s I have are well very machined and finished.
The Dealers Warehouse in Modesto, California has boxes of new/used No. 4 barrels. Not sure why Criterion even wants to make new barrels. I'm sure Criterion will make a nice barrel, but real No. 4 barrels are not hard to find and certainly not expensive, either.
Not being a reloader Brian but an Armourer and engineer, I can't disagree with anything that you say. But it seems as if we're going away from the point of this thread and new made replacement barrels. You all need to listen in............... A new barrel will NOT cure a knackered No4 body. If you cannot CHS your knackered barrel No4 with size 3 bolthead, then fitting a new barrel ain't going to fix it either. I might be stating the bleedin obvious here but CHS for a rimmed round is the gap from the REAR FACE of the barrel to the face of the bolt head.
On that basis, you can screw the barrel in a bit more to close up the gap if you like BUT THE BODY IS STILL KNACKERED! (and it'll be getting progressively worse as you are breaking into the hardened locking surfaces)
I agree with Peter and not professing any of his or others knowledge on such goings on if the action is knackered and you do screw the barrel in further which my gunsmith said usually one thread to line up the extractor slot you cannot take half a thread from the barrels chamber end.
Anyway you will only push the thing so far and me being in safety well your playing with a catastrophic failure that will be coming straight through your face thats it pure and simple I am a realist and keep things KISS bin it there are plenty more in the world without problems. About 4~5 reloads at Full power Mil spec loads for a Rem case out of my No.4s
For having box's of them, they don't have a single item for the No4 on there website.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calif-Steve
Calif-Steve, re: The Dealers Warehouse in Modesto, California. Are you sure they have new No 4 barrels?
Nobody has seen a new No 4 barrel in the UK for a long time now. Because of this, Armalon in UK have recently begun to make new No 4 barrels, and they also sell No 4's which have been rebarrelled by them. Given the problems which DIY re-barreling might entail (I don't understand all the technicalities in the posts above) buying a re-barrelled No 4 from Armalon would be an attractive proposition for someone in the UK.
The owner of The Dealer's Warehouse is a friend of mine. I'll talk to him to see if he's holding out on me but I doubt it. He does have some used barrels complete with the front halves of the receivers still installed as the receivers were just cut through the mag well. I've sent folks there for replacements in the past and installed several over the years with good success but they don't fill the niche market for new barrels.
Thats a good point Rob but why pay top dollar when you can still get No4 for a reasonable price in the UK, plenty about with plenty of meat left in the barrel, also some sporterized ones with full length barrel (just need patience and keep looking)Quote:
Originally Posted by RobD
I know of two No4,s for sale in my club, both around £350 IIRC, one an LB complete with a PH or similar rear sight, bore is like new, the other a No4 Mk1 for £300 but is negotiable I can vouch for this as I sold it to the guy in question and imported it from a guy on this forum......
To me the only folk who I know would pay for a new barrel would be the ones who shoot rare or collectors rifles such as trials rifles and trials and regular No4 (T)'s.... for a standard No4 I really can't see the point unless its got sentimental value........ but thats just my opinion.
I would think people would pay for a brand new made barrel if there was no source for old stock barrels...Quote:
Originally Posted by bigduke6
Bigduke, you're right about "top dollar" - I don't know the price of an Armalon- re-barrelled No 4 and that is remiss of me...
Understand that Jim, but here in the UK, the barrels I,m thinking of are over £300 but don't know if this is fitted (maybe someone in the UK may know ?) when you can still pick up No4,s for not much more it just makes sense to me....... I,m sure most could do a deal with the gunsmith etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Rob I guess it would be a tad more than £350.......Quote:
Originally Posted by RobD
:yikes: Holy CROW! That's a lot... $574.00 CDN at current rate...!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by bigduke6
Yep, the Armalon and Lothar Walther barrels are in the $500 range USD.
I just had a chat with Rav at Dealer's Warehouse and he has a small supply of used No.4 barrels complete with receivers but no new barrels. We may try to hook up at Knob Creek in April and if he brings them, I'll take them, bring them here and grade them using correct gauges and visual inspection. He's been cutting the receivers when he sells them because he no longer holds an FFL and if I get hold of them, I'll unbreech them which will give us a small supply of good receivers too for those looking for a project. All in the works guy. There ain't enough hours in the day.
the rifle is virtually brand new. nothing worn out or knackered. the brass is Winchester, Remington, federal, privy brass. Not blaming the rifle, its just that the chamber spec's are loose. it causes the brass to swell out and it work hardens and eventually fails. I make a point to limit the number of times I reuse my brass to avoid any chance of failure. I cant reasonably expect to get 10 reloads with this chamber so I'm not one of those dream word types either. but I have been reloading for a while and dabbled a bit in bench rest. so I know a little bit too. In a tight chamber; brass last's much longer.
I offer a barrel to get dimensions from. I'm willing at this point to buy three barrels. what more can I do to facilitate the progress towards a successful conclusion. I apologies to anybody whom I blamed for trying to help Criterion along. Because I guesse I'm guilty of at least offering to help too. Also I appologies if it seems I blamed anybody on this site for Criterion's delays. I have bought their product before and have no complaints, but I never experienced delays either.
Never mentioned head space problems. but my chamber is loose and that is a fact. not crap. I don't blame the internet for that.
its the chamber,
in my rifle anyway.
No apologies necessary here mike16. There are barrels on the high end as mentioned above and unfortunately you probably have one. ROF(F) was certainly not beyond having quality control problems over many years with several different weapons systems. Have you tried neck sizing only a batch of brass that is once fired in your chamber and keeping it strictly for that rifle? That is usually a sure fire cure.
The new Criterion barrels will be along this year so patience is virtue.
There is no relationship whatsoever between headspace problems and a chamber cut on the top end of specification.
I'm chompin at the bit for almost 8 months.
I'm a little OC with reloading and don't mix brass between rifles. easy enough because my other .303's haven't been shot yet.
a local gunsmith, competent but not well informed about the character "typical" of the LE's explained that the war time chambers and the Mk4's had looser chambers than the peace time ones. I've heard it often enough as a rumor but no confirmation. so I attributed it to facts. Is it a rumor/myth.
Who makes the best barrels in terms of tollerances and tight chambers?
I'd say there was just some variation between manufacturers of No.4 barrels as there were several during WWII. Post war manufacture was at ROF Fazakerley in England and Long Branch in Canada. I'm guessing now but would say you're dealing with a barrel on the high end of tolerance. You haven't answered as to whether you're fire forming and then neck sizing only which I've already mentioned as a potential cure. Full length sizing will shorten your case life. Remember that these rifles/barrels weren't designed with handloaders and target shooters in mind. They were designed to function in all extremes under combat conditions. I've had good results with all of the different manufacturers' barrels over the years. Two groove, five groove, six groove. There's no difference in any of them in my experience as long as they gauge up in spec and are installed properly.
Just to jump in here and hopefully not upset anyone, brand new No4 Barrels are available in the UK and Fultons of Bisley are fitting them. They are made by Lothar Walther. The barrels come chambered and profiled. They are .303 bore with .311 groove. Unfortunately they are 4 groove RH twist so may not be acceptable to the purists. The outside diameter is also slightly larger than the original so some relieving of the fore-end may be required. I had one fitted two years ago by the gunsmith who imports them (not Fultons) for £245 including proof. Fultons i gather charge quite a bit more. Armalon barrels fitted are about £350.
I had no choice as but to have a Lothar Walther fitted as I could not find an original barrel cheaper.
My no4 is now shooting reliably 2MOA out to 1000yds.
I know Walther is doing them,
and the guy in England?
and another in Australia and a guy in New Zealand?
I'm full length resizing. I could get more life out of them but I like to have a margin of safety so no more than 3 reloads after the initial "fire Forming" . most begin to show signs of failure at 7 reloads.
I do realize that they are combat rifles and that chamber tollerances factor in combat envirionment. I don't personally think there is anything wrong with the barrel and I am sure the chamber meets those combat tollerances. But they are loose, It affects accuracy and brass life. And brass in bulk is still not available in .303 with all the hoarding going on in other calibers.
Mike 16 I have been reloading 303 for over 30 yrs. One of those rifles is a No5 with a very generous chamber. Use an o ring to centre your new case ( use only good quality brass as in the metal) after fire forming use a Lee collet neck sizing die good for 7 more loads that are not mild. FLS after every load buggers the cases. I run about 100 rds per week. Accuracy for my No5 is 1.5/2.0 MOA, one of the others puts a lot of younger so called accurate rifles to shame but then it had to do a special job 70 odd years ago.
I am also a range shooter and know a bit about reloading for that as well. The milsurp 303 is a different beast and to get the best out of it you have to rewrite the reloading rule book for your rifle. Relax and let it talk to you.
These so called 'loose chambers' of the standard rifles and original drawings don't seem to affect the accuracy of the No4T rifles. They all seem pretty accurate to me as we accuracy tested hundreds of them, every time they went out of our workshops. And firing from a no nonsense Enfield rest with all human error removed is a sure test of a rifles accuracy
One of these Peter or the concrete ball?
That's it, the original version. There was a later one that was much simpler. We had 3 of them at Warminster........ Couldn't even get rid of the spare one!
Like this one ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...lhwzm831-1.jpg
Your post #51 says it all Mike. If you're full length sizing and getting 3-7 reloads without a case head failure, I now know you certainly don't need a new barrel on THAT rifle. Switch to a good quality neck sizing die if it makes you feel better, (I like Redding dies). Invest in a case of HXP Mk.7z ammo from CTD which will give you a supply of excellent brass, then projectiles, powder and primers. Enjoy your rifle.
Peter,
Let me know if one comes up for departure please as I have a constant use for a proper bed for the rifles;)
Alan they were semi effective prior to the bed being developed, only problem was anchoring the damn things on the correct floor material. they have to be solidly held in position if the intention is to use them with 5 rounds
Noooooooooooo. Them things were aiming rests and definately not for firing live ammo from! Well, not twice........
Yiou're kidding Gil. The Enfield rest weighs a ton - literally!
...............and you therefore had to be a fixed height, as there was no adjustment. Iwas referring to the concrete balls:lol::lol:
303brits are hard on brass, forget what you know from loading other cartridges IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike16
3~5 reloads of full re-sizing is normal brass life on a No4 assuming no insane loads. You do not want to full size unless you need to bump the shoulder / fix excessive CHS.
If you want 10+ reloads then use the Lee collet die and a wilson SAMMI gauge to check. Watch for a sized and then an assembled bullet that is sticking out more than the CHS of the particular rifle, if so it needs to be emptied and full resized. Typically every 3rd or 4th neck size reload you may well have to full resize. On mild loads (38~40gr 2208/varget) the brass will stretch <1 or 2 thou per firing (hot loads ie 43gr+ 2208/varget can be 10thou per firing). OAL it with the delux Lee quick trim watching to see how much brass is trimmed off. using this will show up if you have a case that has stretched more than 1 or 2 thou on mild loads, if so throw it out, its about to fail on you. I shoot up to 600yds with my No4 range gun, typically a set of 50 303 brass will last me a season+ of use.
Are you in the USA? If so get privy brass though ReloadingInternational.com
It is great brass, cheaper, easily available, and better than Winchester and they do ship overseas.
I live in Arizona.
the rifle shoots very well, perhaps better than my sight allows. I try to be exacting in my reloading procedure as with bench rest. I know that sounds like a cliché to state that I reload to bench rest standards but I do very well that way and spend a lot of time on brass befor loading it. that's what frustrates me about brass life. I understand the need for tolerance because when these rifles were made the 303 ammo was manufactured in how many different countries? for rifles and mg's. Maybe I'm mistaken but I think I could reduce my group a bit with tighter chamber and improve brass life as well.
I also reload to close to bench rest standards. I shoot 308w palma and FTR to 1000yds using lapua match brass and Nossler or HBC competition projectiles which I weigh so I am being as precise as possible with my brass and loads. I do the same with 303brit putting out of spec components to one side to shoot in service rifle which is only 100yds. Certainly NZ gunsmiths used to set very tight chambers on 303s and indeed that seems to be the norm to improve accuracy on many guns, My Ar15 is very tight, so tight I cant use a spikes tactical bolt in it. I would indeed expect to see better accuracy, I mean you are comparing a precision after market barrel made in 2015 v at the youngest a 1950s mass produced barrel. In terms of cartridge life I have milspec barrels and a new lithgow aftermarket H barrel with NZ gunsmith reamed tight chamber, on one range gun, I ahve seen no discernible difference in brass life. Biggest factor so far is the quality/maker of the brass. I am very un-impressed with Winchester brass and DI 1943 brass also doesnt seem to last well. S&B and privy seem to be the better so far. I cant get Remington brass in NZ to try but I dont think that is an issue. I will be trying Hornady next year.
Two things you can do, a) neck size and you will significantly improve brass life by a factor of 4 or more. b) Run as mild loads as you can, anything above or approaching 43 gr of varget/2208 will significantly reduce brass life as the pressure makes the receiver stretch and teh brass with it. Even if the brass doesnt seperate you will be forced to full re-size more often to get the reload to chamber.
Oh and Fed210M s work well for me.
Any idea when they will be available?
I have one of the Lothar Walther barrels on order for my #4 Mk1 action. I will be making a "reproduction" of a "T" rifle with this combination. Still looking for a scope to fit to this, but I am not willing to spend what they are asking for an original 32, or one of the Chinese made knock offs. Not that I have heard many glowing reports of the Sarco/RSM repro's anyway. Something along the lines of a K-3 Weaver will be found.
Once the barrel is fitted, then it will be on to glass bedding the action to the stock, etc.
I haven't had any problems with my 303 Brit brass, in any of my LE's. #4Mk1 LB, #1Mk3 Ishy (1943) and a #1Mk3 compilation of a jumble of parts.
I didn't need to forget all I know about reloading to successfully load for my LE's, either-quite similar to reloading for the 30-40 Krag.
My only "secret" is to not attempt to "hotrod" the 303-I load to get the same velocity as the military ball ammo produced. Just as many other LE shooters on here speak of.
First loads with new brass are fired with an O-ring fitted to head of case, and bullet seated out long, requiring some effort to chamber the round. After that, neck size, until I get difficulty chambering, and then size ONLY enough to get the brass to chamber smoothly.
Glass bedding? ouchie. The no4 is a strange beast to make work, if you surround the receiver sides expect it not to like it. There is a very good book but also some youtube vids that shows what works, I recommend both, same author.
https://www.youtube.com/user/EnfieldAccurizing
Peter Laidler has written articles on the proper way to stock up an Enfield. Here on this site.
Yep but the interesting thing is Peter's articles remains one of the best setups, for service rifle Roger's book/vids show this. For target work they can be improved but that isnt as issued and seem to need more maintenance.
Mmmmmmmm. I would argue that a sniper needs a correctly set up sniper rifle almost as much as a target shooter does. After all, both their lives depend on it. Just being a tad facetious of course.......... But if it's good enough for a sniper rifle, I contend that it's good enough for a target rifle. Never been a true target shooter of course
Are you sure ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Dictionary definition -
T.A.D.
Terrorist Anxiety Disorder - noun
A mental disorder where one lives in perpetual fear of a terrorist attack regardless of location, as if a terrorist will make a bold new statement by attacking a midwestern suburban middle-class house. A person affected with this disorder will commonly hoard massive amounts of bottled water and non-perishable food in their basement in the event of such an attack. These are people who live in continual fear of attacks and still refuse to fly in a plane (thus allowing the terrorists achieve their goal - fear), but can often be found following anyone with a middle-eastern appearance around the grocery store to make sure they are not up to no good.
I suspect 'tad' in the sense of 'a bit', or 'somewhat' was around a long time before it meant 'terrorist anxiety disorder' (which I must admit, was a new one on me)....