couple interesting 1903s came into my shop..
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couple interesting 1903s came into my shop..
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update... a good friend in Japan, says this is Japanese Military....
There are some pictures of Thai marked '03's in Brophy however i think his dates are off. At the beginning of WW2 Thailand was officially in the Japanese orbit. There was I believe a resistance movement and perhaps even a government in exile. But under those circumstances it is hard believe the US was sending weapons and they were in turn being marked in a foreign arsenal. I think most if not all of the Thai marked US Equipment is post war issue.
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Very interesting, mum's the word.
Kurt
The markings on the receiver aren't Thai or Japanese, they are Chinese. It's the marking of the Nationalist Chinese army under General Chiang Kai-Shek. I have a Chinese Mauser and a Japanese Nambu with the same markings in my collection.
Chinese History - KMT Republic of China - Army / National Revolutionary Army
BBC - History - Chiang Kai-shek
Aid to Nationalist China: U.S. Army Military Assistance Advisory Group in Formosa - YouTube
well.
i can only tell you the man who said they are Japanese, is Japanese, and lives in Japan.
said that they are old script, if that means anything.
could have a China Japan connection,
same person helped me with some WW2 Japanese officers swords.
I agree with JGaynor - the only way the Thai rifles could date to WWII is if they received captured M1903s from the Philippines or some other source through their (then) allies, the Japanese.
My Chinese Mauser and Nambu type 14 have the same markings as this one: Nambu World: Showa 19.6 Nationalist Chinese Marked Type 94
I presumed the information on Teri's WWII Japanese Handgun Website "Nambu World" was correct.
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Identical markings on my Chinese Mauser and my Japanese Nambu Type 14. If these markings arent of the Chinese Nationalist Army as mentioned on Nambu World, does anybody know what they are and what is the source of your information?
I asked Shane O'Keefe "a friend from the old neighborhood" if he knew what it says. No, but his buddy Bernie Goldstein has a tattoo in Japanese writing and he thinks it reads "Crouching Tiger, Flying Dragon." in KOREAN.!!!...:mad smile:
So sorry guys, couldn't resist...:D
Note: the barrel that is China or Japan made is dated 6-1946... i must say they did a nice job making the barrel, Blue is a little off, but the metal work is exellent..
iv been messing with 1903s for a while you could say, and see more then most guys...and these are the first ones marked as such
I agree - a 6-46 M1903 barrel is a first! :D
I think it is a WW2 M1903 overhauled and marked by the Chinese Nationalist Army just like my Chinese Mauser (Standard Modell copy).
The Springfield 1903 Rifles: The Illustrated, Documented Story of the Design ... - William S. Brophy - Google Books
The above captioned link will take the reader to page 141 of Wm. Brophy's encyclopedic work on the '03. Scroll down to pages 149 to 151 for information on Lend Lease and Military Assistance rifles.
Posts #3, #7 and #10 in this thread Savage No4 MkI* - Chinese Lend Lease confirms the markings are Chinese Nationalist Army markings.
HyperWar: Lend-Lease Shipments, World War II (Ordnance)
This link goes to a table showing just how much stuff was sent overseas under the Lend Lease program alone. Scroll down its organized by country.
Good info Jim...good link.
Bear in mind that these figures are incomplete. 'Theater transfers' noted on the bottom of the page amounted to 14% of L/L total dollars. These were items provided to friendly forces in active theaters directly from theater reserves, not those shipped from the U.S. As I understand it, itemized lists were either not kept or, at least, never published (only dollar totals), so we might never know the actual count of this or that type of rifle.
The French, first in Italy with 5th U.S. Army, later in southern France with 7th U.S. Army, received U.S. small arms, including at least 89,000 M1917s. See how many 1917s are listed in the tables? It appears to be even more complicated - most (if not all or almost all) of these came from the Brits - from the ones they purchased just after Dunkirk and before L/L. Bet the transfer from Brit to French for a U.S. program required a complicated accounting entry.
Understood, but I had NO info in print before this...probably an oversight on my part as I'm sure it's been here before.Quote:
Originally Posted by firstflabn
We're on the same page, Jim. Didn't intend for my wording to come across as criticism. I'm a dedicated beancount guy, so all numbers are good in my book. My reply above was partially from memory, so let me rehabilitate myself with some excerpts from the army's official account of French rearmament:Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
In addition to the M1917 rifle, which they received throughout the year 1943, the French were also given large quantities of the M1903 (Springfield), likewise .30 caliber.
...the larger part of the rifles issued to them, approximately two thirds, consisted of M1917's....
Further aggravating maintenance problems was the fact that a considerable proportion of the rifles (estimated by the French as 10 percent, especially the M1917's) were found to be of a low order of serviceability. This was not surprising for the weapons involved were old. In fact they were part of the stocks shipped by the United States to the British after the evacuation of Dunkerque in 1940....
In July 1944, answering a query from the War Department, General Loomis reviewed the French rifles situation as it stood on the eve of ANVIL. He estimated that the French had received a total of approximately 215,000 rifles including 167,000 M1917's, 47,000 M1903's, 740M1's, and 13,400 M1 carbines.
My 89k figure for M1917s was for French forces in the ETO in Jan 45. The larger number above appears to be for the entire program. Note that the linked L/L list also underreports M1903s.
Back for a moment to the Thai connection - I was at first dubious as to whether Thailand was part of L/L. They don't show up as receiving anything in the linked transcription. In my piles I found a page from a wartime L/L publication. It contained a note grouping a bunch of small countries in Asia and Africa into an 'other' category. Among them was Thailand. Unfortunately, military hardware was also summarized, appearing only as a dollar total. So, Thailand cannot be eliminated from consideration as might have been thought from their absence in the hyperwar L/L list.
On 23 July 1941, President Roosevelt ordered the provision of arms and equipment to China, along with a Military Advisory Group to help train the Chinese in their use. The mission was known as MAGIC (Military Advisory Group In China). The mission arrived in October 1941. The Burma Road was the only viable supply link to China by this time. In December 1941, Roosevelt agreed to train and arm 30 divisions of Chinese Nationalists troops.
The situation in China grew worse in 1942. In India, the American aid for China began arriving. The Rifle .30 Model of 1917, the so called American Enfield, Automatic Rifle .30 M1918 and M1918A2 known as the "BAR", and the Browning Machine Gun .30 M1917A1 were issued to the Chinese troops in India which were placed under Stilwell's command.
In 1944 U.S. Rifles .30 M1903 and M1903A3 (American Springfield Rifles) were being received in quantity to supplement the .30 M1917 Enfields for arming the Chinese. Altogether about 400,000 .30 Enfield and Springfield Rifles were supplied by the end of WW2 to Nationalist China.
In 1949 Chiang Kai Shak had begun shipping his personal forces, cultural treasures, and other key assets to the island of Formosa (Taiwan) before the final stages of collapse. When most of the KMT hierarchy and their families and others fled there to escape the Communists. In December 1949, Chiang proclaimed Taipei the new capitol of the Republic of China Government.
Chiang, once again the President, began rebuilding his forces. Initially, the small arms situation was quite good as the troops transported there were considered among the best and had been armed with better quality rifles, including German made 7.92mm Standard Modell 1924, 7.92mm Type 24 of good quality, .30 Caliber Carbines M1, and M1903 and M1903A3 .30 Springfield's. U.S. aid shipments had been diverted to Taiwan as China was falling.
After 1951, .30 M1 Garand rifles were provided in quanity and by late 1950's 7.92mm Mausers were largely in storage. Circa 1962 these Mausers were transferred to an other power.
The Garands were replaced by a Chinese made version of the M14 7.62mm NATO rifle beginning in the mid sixties. These were followed by the 5.56mm M16A1 and then supplemented by a Chi-Nat derivative of the Stoner design which avoided license costs.
Source: chinapage1
@chuckindenver
My theory is that your M1903 was one of the rifles received by the Chinese Nationalists as military aid during WW2. During the war the barrel was damaged and replaced by one of the Chinese arsenals under Chiang Kai Shek's control in 1946. In 1949 she followed Chiang and his Nationalist army to exile on the Island(s) of Taiwan a.k.a. Formosa.
When the Garands were replaced by a localy made version of the M14 in the sixties the M1917's, M1903's, M1's and M1928's were sold to an other country. Maybe Thailand?
Why do you think it is a Thai M1903?
With regard to accounting and lend-lease, in New Zealand government records show shipments of some 40,000 US rifles but it is not recorded how many were M1917 or M1903, both were issued to NZ home forces.
Is that not the Thai Chakra above the barrel date?Quote:
Originally Posted by UNPROFOR1994
I don't think so, the shape is different and usually Thai Mausers, Arisakas, M1903's and M1's are marked on top of the receiver.Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
It looks exactly like the markings on this Nationalist Chinese manufactured M1 Garand bayonet Chinese M1 Garand Bayonet Scabbard. - Collector's Source, Military Collectibles Online for sale right now on the Collectors Source website and this one Scarce Chinese M1 Garand Bayonet Scabbard. on the Joe Salter website.
Now I'm 100% sure it's one of the M1903 rifles received by the Chinese Nationalists as U.S. military aid during WW2.
again, these are not mine, they were in my shop for clean and safety check.
in 30 some of years of collecting, and working on 1903s i have not seen one marked as such, or a barrel like this..
it was just to share the cool factor nothing more.
rifles wont be shot, or assembled,
i may pick them up in the estate buy if the price is right.
The hunt is always more exiting than the catch and that is exactly what I love about collecting historical firearms ;-) I hope you can buy atleast one. Good luck!
Butt stock Chakra
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...7-04-12085.jpg
Receiver Chakra
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...7-04-12084.jpg
Thai Rack No.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...7-04-12095.jpg
Hopefully these pics will be a little larger and more distinct tun the ones I posted the other day. I Have had the Thai Marked A4 since the late 60's. It was hand carried across the street to me by a manager at Interarms in Alexandria. A number of years ago I posted the pics on the net and several people responded with translations . The rack number was pretty straight forward a leading symbol indicating Bangkok followed by a five digit number. Supposedly one of the figures in the large Chakra supposedly stood for Queen Sirikit who i understood ascended to the throne in the early 50's. If all this information is accurate I believe it suggests the rifle went to Thailand as part of a MAP program.
I suspect the A4 came back to this country mixed in with Siamese Mausers Interarms was selling at the time.
The barrel mark above the 6-46 is Taiwan. The same mark can be found painted on the spam cans of surplus ammo they shipped here years ago. Cheers, Bruce.