Unertl 8X scope SN 1114 - was it USMC?

A military buddy, who served in the USMC Force Recon in Viet Nam, just sent me an 8X Unertl scope in the military Micarta carrying case as a gift. It has the figure "8" on a ring, signifying 8X I believe. Sadly the scope is in very poor condition, no bluing remains and it is missing a couple of screws. There is no recoil return spring. This scope is marked J. UNERTL / 1114 and was found in a proper Micarta case in an old army surplus store about 5 years ago. I am a Lee-Enfield buff, do not know a lot about the U.S. rifles and my reference books are mostly on the British type weapons.

On-line references describe the USMC sniper Unertls e.g. "The scope was marked "USMC SNIPER" and serialized from 1000 to 2775. The scope came with a Micarta carrying case."
http://olive-drab.com/od_other_firea..._m1941usmc.php

A search of the Internet including this forum and my resulting creation of a small database of UNERTL 8X scopes show that those known to be USMC are marked J. UNERTL / USMC - SNIPER. / #### I have not turned up a lower serial number than 1114 so far that is "known" to be USMC.

My questions are:

1. Could this Unertl 8X scope SN 1114 have been a USMC issued sniper scope? (I have to measure the diameters still.)

2. Did the markings on the USMC Unertl 8X scopes vary during production? I know that marking on the Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk. I (T) sniper rifles evolved over time during WWII.

3. Does anyone have, or know of, an Unertl 8X USMC scope with a lower SN than 1114?

4. Would this scope have had a recoil return spring?

5. Can anyone suggest sources for replacement screws?

Thank you

[IMG]http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps95da3687.jpg[/IMG]

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...194a3f99-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...73b63922-1.jpg

For whatever reason this scope looks like a legit USMC sniper scope to me. And no wonder they had hid it somewhere, poor little thing. How are the optics, any crosshair still visible?

If you're going to part with it, let me know!

Markings: The early WWII British sniper rifles' marking system is known to have evolved over the first couple of years. Some markings did not appear in the first year or so. I am curious to know if ALL of the USMC scopes were marked J. UNERTL / USMC- SNIPER / #### from the very beginning of their procurement. This is probably impossible to know unless documented specimens are known which have different markings from later standardized versions. We know for example a 1903 Springfield that went to the UK and later back to the States and is now in a private collection, with SN ending in ... 1776, does not have the normal "US" marking. Exceptions do exist.

Serial numbers: I wonder how certain researchers are about the serial number range of the USMC scopes being 1,000 to about 2,775 as this one, 1114, falls within that range but does not have the USMC-SNIPER marking. Given the pressures of war, did the USMC accept scopes without the special USMC-SNIPER marking?

The lowest s/n I've seen is no. 1015 and the highest is no. 2759 and they all had the USMC-SNIPER marking.

this is the first scope that i would say, has been issued and used on a Genuine USMC snipers rifle...

Chuck,
That is exactly what I was thinking....At least it LOOKS like it saw every rain shower in the South Pacific !!

Sorry I can't offer anything constructive.
Tom

Lowest number I have seen is 1004 and it was USMC marked. It was also rebuilt and parkerized. It was on a pretty well used 1903 with a Star gauged barrel and a NM stock. I have also seen one scope without USMC markings, which had been removed, probably to hide US ownership like was done to so many M1911s. The case is a $700-1000 item. The scope is worth restoring, although I am not totally sure that it was a military scope so far.

As to having a recoil/return spring, the USMC took them off. They were not supposed to be used on the rifles. One should pull the scope back with each shot.

Thank you all. Next questions then ...

6. Did Unertl ever duplicate serial number runs between military and civilian production? In other words, could this be part of a parallel civilian production run?

7. Other than 1114, has anyone seen an Unertl 8X scope without the USMC-SNIPER marking but within the 1,000 to about 2,775 serial number range associated with USMC?

8. What is the source for the serial number range 1,000 - 2,775 and how official is that source?

Colin

The USMC markings are found on every USMC contract Unertl. I don't know of any large scope order by the War Dept that was submitted without evaluation of the commercial version of the scope to see if it was satisfactory. (Weaver 330 series, Lyman Alaskan, but probably not the M84)

Add in where it was found, I would think that yours is an evaluation scope. (Unertl wouldn't have asked for it's return.) But, you aren't going to find anything in the way of proof that it is the real thing, & probably nothing on exact serial numbers of contract scopes actually issued. It was just inconsiderate of the soldiers working in supply not to keep detailed records; they should have known that, 75 years later, inquiring minds would want to know.

Neal

Thanks Neal. Dealing with anything that is non-standard including unexplained extra or absent markings, possible prototypes, experimental, trials, evaluations of any military scope, rifle etc. is a nightmare due to lack of documentation in most cases. Sadly it is an area where fraudsters run amuck, where Bubba ruins a good rifle and then tries to sell it as an "experimental model" for an inflated price.

Even in production we find that some early examples were not always marked "by the book", but as long as it worked, that was the main thing for the purchasing service. As mentioned above, "Red Star (confusingly this refers to the firearms retailer business rather than the Soviet Union) Springfield 1903 SN 3051776 was sent to the UK, and was later bought in a crate of unused rifles with the red band painted on the rifles (British marking to alert users that it was .30/06 not .303). For an odd reason did not have the standard "U.S." marking. Reference: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=15358 where the author wrote "As to the unique property of rifle 3051776 that was discovered only recently...the receiver ring markings are, "REMINGTON MODEL 1903 3051776", with the conspicuous, (now, anyway!), lack of the "U.S." government ownership stamp. Research on the most prominent 1903 web-site forum has, as yet, failed to reveal another specimen so marked. Thought it a bit of patriotic irony that a rifle that is "U.S."-free, should have a serial number ending in 1776."

Exceptions do occur. Maybe scope 1114 was produced early on a Monday morning or late on Friday afternoon just before Happy Hour at the local tavern?

Some other examples of out of place markings or parts:

Canadian Sten guns Mark II produced in Canada at Long Branch. These had Chinese markings. Not all were sent to China and we sometimes see these Stens in Canada.

The Canadian Inglis Browning High-Power came in two basic models - one with shoulder stock and long range sights and one with no stock slot and fixed sights. My old company commander in the army was issued with one that had the frame of the stock model and the slide of the second model and this was as it left the factory.

Then there was a P-38 German pistol that I had. Battle captured with holster and spare magazine. Nice Walther factory code and 1943 year. However it had NO serial nunbers anywhere and it NEVER had any! I sold it to a P-38 collector and he and the other P-38 collectors are still trying to figure that one out!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seaforth72

the frame of the stock model and the slide of the second model

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I left Gagetown in '96 and they still had one of these in stores for common issue. We used it on the SAIC courses...

Most if not all Inglis No.1 pistols that were left in Canadian Army inventory post WWII went back to Canadian Arsenals and were converted to No.2 configuration. Some of the original Mk.1 slides had the rear sight base milled off and a new fixed sight soldered in. Others were just replaced with late replacement No.2 slides. You can usually tell by serial numbers on the slide. Mine is CH9745 and the frame serial number is original but the slide and barrel are post war replacements with the tricornered Canadian Tech Services proof and serial number stamped on instead of pantographed. It's seen service with the Brirtish Army because it sports the Suncorite 259 baked paint over phosphate finish. It came to the USA with a load of surplus No.2 pistols direct from the British Disposals Unit at Donnington via Val Forgett of Navy Arms in the mid 1990's.

I just picked up a copy of the magazine "Military Surplus 2015" at a Barnes & Noble bookstore yesterday. Bruce N. Canfield wrote an article in it about the "M1903A4 SNIPER". I found a comment of his on page 58 of the above mentioned article to be of special interest I.e. "Early production M1903A4s left the factory with 'off the shelf' 330C scopes acquired from Weaver and from various commercial suppliers."

Mr. Canfield also mentioned the ongoing great difficulties that the U.S. Army had in getting scopes. He wrote that rifles, both Springfield and Garand, were sitting ready, stockpiled, awaiting scopes. M1903A4 sniper rifles were issued with Weaver scopes in WWII as the M81 and M82 were in in very short supply. Canada had the same problem for Long Branch No. 4 Mk. I* (T) sniper rifles, as the REL factory was slow in making C No. 32 scopes, which is why Canada bought 350 Lyman Alaskan scopes (with post and crosshair) which were designated (but not marked) as C No. 32 TP Mk. I (TP = Trade Pattern). Even those seem to have be ordered in 1943 and but were not available to be mounted on rifles until 1945. After WWII the British had perhaps 3,000 or so Lee-Enfield No. 4 rifles, mostly Stevens-Savage made, that had been partially converted to snipers but were never completed [known as No. 4 MK.I (T LESS TELESCOPE) or No. 4 MK.I* (T LESS TELESCOPE)].

By the way most of those Alaskan scopes have a British broad arrow issue mark (even though they were made for Canada not the UK) following the serial number (including mine 4407S) but not all had the /|\. There too is an exception to a rule in markings. Remember the Springfield rifle I mentioned in an earlier listing here with its serial number ending in 1776 which was in the middle of production, yet it has no "U.S." marking as "all" the others do and as all are supposed to have.

Given the troubles that both the U.S. Army and the Canadian Army were having obtaining enough sniper scopes in WWII, and as I understand it, the USMC was usually left behind the U.S. Army at the feed trough for equipment, it would actually be very surprising if the USMC received all the scopes they wanted on time.

In more recent times, the Canadian Army ordered some Unertl scopes. Delivery was painfully slow and with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the USMC swooped in on Unertl and commandeered all the scopes that were there awaiting delivery to Canada and others. Ironically Canadian snipers later saved many American lives during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan.

We can safely assume that the USMC would have wanted all of their Unertl scopes marked to their specifications, however at he time there was a high demand for sniper rifles, there was the urgency of war and scope production was much slower than desired. How do we know that "ALL" Unertl scopes they bought were marked 'USMC-SNIPER'? Does someone have a USMC inspector's report that he had inspected every single one or are people assuming that they were all marked? Would the desperate USMC have rejected an otherwise perfect sniper scope just because it was not marked "USMC-SNIPER"?

How do we know what serial number range the USMC bought? Is there a purchase order or some similar document, or an inventory listing from USMC sources?

Did the USMC receive every scope in that serial number block or were there exceptions? Again a USMC purchase receipt or inventory list would be ideal.

If we do not have the primary documentation from archival sources and are working only from reported examples, then caution must be exercised about making conclusions.

I would encourage anyone who has primary documents (e.g. Unertl or USMC records) to share copies of them.

I know from doing research on Lee-Enfield No. 4 snipers that I much prefer to see the actual rifles or at least photos of markings rather than depending upon people's descriptions of markings as mistakes can occur. E.g. Most, but not all, No. 4 (T) rifles are stamped TR on the left side of the butt socket. Some that went through Factory Thorough Repair (arsenal rebuild) are also stamped F.T.R. In the same location, sometimes overlapping.

You might find this interesting.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...%20unertl.jpeg

Although highly problematic in the early part of the Pacific Theatre the '03/Unertl combination did somewhat better in later parts of the war. By then the Target scope's fate had been sealed.
In 1950 when the USMC wrote new specs for a snipers rifle they selected a relatively short, rugged hunting scope with internal adjustments and a quick detachable mount (the MC1952 with MC1 scope).

Incidentally Lyman's Delivery problems early in the war were not confined to the UK and Canadians. When the M1903A4 was approved Two scopes were selected - the Lyman Alaskan (M73) and the Weaver 330C (M73B1).
Lyman depended on Bausch and Lomb to provide the special matched lens sets. However, B&L was busy with other high priority war work such as making binoculars for the navy. No M73 Scopes would be delivered before M1903A4 production ended although some 36,000 had been ordered in anticipation of finishing out the A4 deliveries and replacing the M73B1.

The M81 ans M82 were modifications of the M73. None of those saw the light of day until late 44 or early 45. Most of the Lyman Alaskan derived scopes were used on M1C's


The Springfield Research Service used to offer a file of USMC correspondence, a9 about 50 pages of stuff from 1940 to 1950 or so. Most of these documents are also republished in Senich's "The USMC scout-Sniper in WWII and Korea". The information as it appears in Senich is a little more useful as the copies are better and are organized.

Clark Campbell's "The '03 Springfield Era" (2003) has a lot of useful information.

PM sent on screws

I think the Black Anodized rear Micrometer mount screams "USMC Unertl", all by itself.

The special Black Anodized, Non-Split Rear mounts, with screws on the tops of the adjusters and the upper right side micrometer frame (only) having a groove in it, were only used on USMC 8X Unertls, right??

Was this style ever used on the Unertl Commercials - weren't they all polished aluminum color, with the right side "top grove/trough" rounded all the way off? It is always possible the whole thing was assembled from miscellaneous parts, but if the wear patterns are old and match, maybe it is an original that was simply not marked conventionally. Perhaps pulled from existing stock to get the order out sooner? Who knows - it could well be.

I could easily go along with an Evaluation model, very early, pulled from regular Target/Combination scope production. Second possibility in my mind was a post war overrun built up from left over parts in the factory bins, or a scope purchased for post war target work. CC

Sorry to bump an older thread...

But, I have recently come into possession of an Unertl 8x and would appreciate any recommendations on restoration. It looks to be fully intact although the cross hair is damaged and a slight amount of surface rust. I'll try to post up pics and info later today.

TIA

TJA
Iron Sight in Tulsa Oklahoma does excellent restoration work. Fairly long backlog but Mike & his staff are experts. He has rebuilt 3 scopes for me, I think if you search this forum you will see him recommended by several other members.

Iron Sight Inc.

Leggett71 in Tulsa

Leggett71, thanks for the recommendation. That matches what I was turning up with my research, but I like having corroborating opinions.

Here,
Unertl Scope Repair. Any suggestions???

For the life of me I can't remember the folks down south, lovely lady and her father (he worked for a big name scope co) that do great work Arizona/New Mexico, just can't remember. Other than that sounds like the above link will do the trick and you won't have to wait 9 months.

Anyhow, in regards to the OP, would be great to know if his 1114 had the early USMC small ring crosshair center? might answer questions in the odd chance it's got the original reticle. Yes they had them and I know 1325 still has it.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...qxn9kts2-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cw0jvpga-1.jpg

Just a little bit of info that may help. If you go on the yahoo Unertl group, they are keeping track of the serials of the Unertl scopes of the members there. They do have some commercial serials that overlap into the early Marine Corps serial ranges. Since I too have seen serials that come before this, with the USMC Sniper marking. I would say this has to be one of the civilian serials that seem to overlap in that yahoo Unertl list I mentioned above.

But I would add the caveat that going through the Marine paperwork, it looks like they requested and got approval to purchase 20 Unertl Scopes for testing around July 1941. I imagine these test scopes were not USMC marked. That might explain what this one is and explain it's history. It would just be hard to prove either way.

And I have seen the black enameled mounts all the way into almost the 10,000 serial range on commercial scopes. So they are not exclusive to the USMC contract.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cplstevennorton

Just a little bit of info that may help. If you go on the yahoo Unertl group, they are keeping track of the serials of the Unertl scopes of the members there. They do have some commercial serials that overlap into the early Marine Corps serial ranges. Since I too have seen serials that come before this, with the USMC Sniper marking. I would say this has to be one of the civilian serials that seem to overlap in that yahoo Unertl list I mentioned above.

But I would add the caveat that going through the Marine paperwork, it looks like they requested and got approval to purchase 20 Unertl Scopes for testing around July 1941. I imagine these test scopes were not USMC marked. That might explain what this one is and explain it's history. It would just be hard to prove either way.

And I have seen the black enameled mounts all the way into almost the 10,000 serial range on commercial scopes. So they are not exclusive to the USMC contract.

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Steve, i also have copies of the file (SRS) on USMC sniper rifles and Senich's USMC sniper book. Although both sources contain copies of the 20 scope requisition prepared at Capt. Van Orden's direction I believe later in the file (or text) there is an indication the 20 scope requisition was cancelled.

From where I sit the scope certainly looks like it may have been used in combat as opposed to some civilian or military target shooter.
I would not overlook the possibility the "USMC - Sniper" nomenclature was simply omitted due to a manufacturing screw-up. (vis a vis the 3000 M1903A4 receivers built with the wrong serial number.)

John Unertl was indeed making 1 1/4" Target commercial scopes in 1941 prior to the USMC contract. They are few and scarce to be found, but they are not to be confused with the USMC-Sniper scopes that were purchased by the US Marines. Your scope is one of these commercial target scopes. The mounts may in fact be identical as those used on the USMC-Sniper scopes. There was considerable "cross-breeding" of parts during the war years and after. Your scope, despite its wear is a valuable piece. I would recommend you try Aaron Davis for any Unertl repairs or information. He worked for John and I believe has much of his old equipment. My last phone number for him is 937-631-2854. This was a work number.
As far as the Marine corps using "target" scopes in combat...well, I have not seen ANY evidence that this was the case, for any of the 3 wars the 8X Unertl saw duty. I've spoken with more than a dozen 8541's and 8112's and they only recall USMC-Sniper Unertl's or 10/12X Lyman Targetspot (very infrequently).
I hope this is helpful, good luck with your scope.

Earlier in this thread a question was asked about how did the community know the serial number range for the USMC Unertl Sniper scopes.

There is a MarCorp document dated 29 April 1945 which states the original order was for 1750 Scopes. At that time the document further states 975 of the scopes remained on hand in USMC depots.