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Morning all,
Never considered asking this question before, but can any information be unpicked from the NZ service rack number, date acquired, unit, base etc?
I have a NZ stamped, rack numbered Enfield 1917 dated No1 Mk3*, the old girl is all original and gauges .305, but she still shoots well considering she's 98 years old....this old girl still has her teeth!
Shot in the dark, but I just wondered ??
Where is she rack numbered? I've seen rack and procurement dates on pre WW1 rifles but never on a late WW1 Enfields, Just the N^Z ownership mark. Got any pics?
But as to the question, as far as I know, only from the butt ID disc can you get any info on the rifles (or at least the rifles butt) history.
Hi Roy,
I will get the rifle out and photograph it when I get the chance, the NZ ownership stamp is on the left of the receiver ring and the rack number is stamped vertically down the centre of the receiver ring in parallel with the bolt
Interesting. the NZ mark is usually there together with a NZ on the Nocks form. often there is a S>
I have asked NZ army archives if there is any such info.
Seems my last post is a bit messed up. the NZ army was pretty good at S>
Morning chaps, well here she is, more markings than you could shake a stick at!
rack number S21061
We had a large mix of the odd No1's, loads of No4's and L1A1 rifles while I was in NZ and some (but not all by any means) of the No4's had what we called 'census numbers' on them in addition to the factory numbers. But as I recall, the serial number was always the accountable number.
"I'd say they are destroyed now. " 15 years ago I worked on some of the military camps and at one stage found that their records/documents had simply been dumped en-mass into some storage no way to know what was where. It is possible it still exists but it would be a life's work to sort it. I also seem to recall they might have had a bit of a fire which destroyed some of it. I have asked the army museum anyway on the off chance.
In terms of marking, NZ army guns seem to have had a unique number stamped on, maybe its historic 'do it as my dad did it' as even the old stuff (pre-WW1) appears to have all been numbered. PL says not all, which is interesting, there certainly is a mix of no4s with (seem mostly) and without, Id assumed they were imported as surplus as the 303brit was used heavily here for hunting and target shooting as it was cheap.
Don't see to many of the SMLEs here with the numbers, most seem to have been ground off (if they were there) for the sale mark.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...morefun3-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../01/SSA5-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9/17BSA6-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/18BSA6-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9/18EFD4-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rreldate-1.jpg
MrClark it looks like you may have a fell off the back of the lorry NZ rifle. maybe even lost during or immediately post WW1 when NZ forces were in Blighty . I see the barrel is a '16 too. does she have an I'd disc?
Hi,
the reply I have is,
"Good Afternoon.
xxxxx has passed your Enquiry to me regarding NZ marked Enfield Serial numbers.
Unfortunately there are no such records left. They were destroyed long ago by NZDF."
That's a fine collection of rifles... (I have been looking for other SMLE's with NZ makings and came up with nothing....than along they come like buses!! do they all belong to you, you lucky man!Quote:
Originally Posted by 5thBatt
Tell me, did NZ buy many No1's from Lithgow in WW1, or were the Enfield's and BSA's bought while in the European Theatre of operations?
I wonder how many survive with intact rack numbers today....I guess mine fell off the back of a lorry and never got taken home.
Curious thing is, it has no markings dating post WW1, so it escaped WW2 service !
---------- Post added at 12:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 PM ----------
Many thanks indeed for looking into that for me, it really was very kind, looks like the infos lost forever then!Quote:
Originally Posted by ssj
---------- Post added at 12:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------
No ID disk on mine, shes a typical 1917 production example, she has the transitional forend with the volley sight "dish", the earlier magazine well with sling swivel provision and a wooden blank where the butt disk would normally be situated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy
The nicest thing about this rifle is its a real time capsule, undisturbed since WW1 as far as I can tell.
I have never seen a rack or 'census' number on any NZ SMLE post 1914 all I have seen are ones with S>New Zealand Arms Register - Arms Register
By 1916-17 NZs supply of SMLE's was exhausted and reinforcements were leaving NZ unarmed and being armed from British supplies, which may have included SMLES shipped from Lithgow. I'd like to see a full photo set of the rifle. I'd say the i'd disk if it was marked was disposed of by whoever found themselves in possession of the rifle after the army had it. this was commonly done here in NZ, though I have never seen a pre 1918 NZ marked disc, i'd like to see one.
Your rifle has a '303' proof on the barrel? is that a military marking or a civilian one.
Why does anything that Roy writes seem to be barred through? Or is it my computer? Or is it that he used to run the R&I account at a REME workshop where it was forbidden to delete anything and only barring through was allowed! Just a thought
Not just you Peter, same on my computer & even worse on my cellphone with nearly all posts being barred through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
---------- Post added at 07:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 AM ----------
The N^Z markings i posted are believed to be post WW1 markings & yes they are my rifles.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
http://www.armsregister.com/arms_reg...smle_mkiii.PDF
Ive noticed that, and it seems to happen when I try to imitate the sold out of service mark. but it has been messing up my posts. during WW1 do you think the NZ army would have marked their rifles as soon as received i.e in England. or perhaps MrClarks rifle was lost during WW2. If a British arms recovery unit recovered a fallen rifle belonging to another allied country would it be returned to them or just 'go into the system'
Where Armies operated together the Ordnance supplies were usually pooled in any case. We had pooled weapons, ammunition and vehicles
So maybe during WW2 the rifle could have ended up in the British system. Another possibility anyway.
Well here she is, in all her glory, complete with correct wide piling swivel, Enfield marked brass oiler and pull through in butt and Cole Brothers 1916 dated sling.
As you can see the wooden butt blank appears to have been in suite for many years and exactly matches the original wood work (looks factory fitted to me).
Very nice. In some areas the NZ forces persisted in using the ID disc until post WW2 (Navy and Airforce) and I have a ID disc which has a '43 date that is probably home service in Wellington. Thanks for showing a interesting piece of NZ history
Hi Roy, its my pleasure to share the pictures, she is a lovely rifle to shoot, a real piece of WW1 history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy
With regard to NZ service butt discs, I believe the practice continued until the L1A1 era, I believe the RNZAF were the last to use the system, back in the 1960's.