No4MK1 T EXPERT OPINIONS NEEDED

I am looking at this T series Lee Enfield. . I would appreciate if you would look at these pictures and give me your opinion. Trying to find out if this is this is the real deal or not (forced match, all original, etc.). The fellow who has this rifle told me he purchased it at least 30yrs ago, he said the chest is in tough shape, straps, wood. One of the pictures shows a wood knot that fell out of the bottom another picture shows a fresh piece missing from the side....the chest is not matching, he thought it came from a Dutch contract T rifle. In regards of price of the overall package, how much of a percentage would this non-matching chest add or subtract given the fact of condition and mis-matched #'s, I may try to purchase it less the chest. He said the condition of the scope and rifle is near mint, the bore is mint.....out of all the T series he said this was the nicest he has seen in regards to condition. I had him pull the butt stock off to verify rifle serial #, as pictures will show. He applied chalk in some instances to highlight serial #'s. Scope, mount, butt stock and rifle bolt are all matching, the mag I don't believe is as no serial #'s can be seen in the picture. On the right side of the receiver you can see the stencilled "No4MK1" why it is not stamped in rather than stenciled? The lower fore stock has been replaced (non-matching serial #) kinda interesting why, as the rest of the wood looks as good as new and authentic but yet it's been replaced. Does this look like it has been done while still in service, and does this de-value the rifle in a substantial way. The "S" stamp on the right side of the receiver looks as it has had a double impression, maybe first impression was not struck hard enough. The scope can is also non-matching but appears to be in very good shape. The sling condition he said has been "well used". This rifle cannot be viewed in person by me as it's way to far to travel so that's why I had him send me all these pictures. If I purchase this rifle I will be shooting it.....do these shoot as well as a Longbranch or vice/versa, or is there really no difference? The price is $6000 Can. To my untrained eye it looks to be a very, very nice rifle.....your thoughts or concerns would really be appreciated. Regards.

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Well that was fun and games viewing those pic's.
Looks ok from here, but let the experts check it over.

This rifle is the real deal.

THE GOOD:
Matching serial numbers X31660 on rifle, bolt, bracket, butt (scope and rifle SN) and scope!!!! Most buyers never get to see the serial number of the rifle on the butt when buying.
Has correct "S" for iron sights checked
Has Correct "TR"
Has correct "T"
ENGLAND mark is just an import mark, most have it. Neither good nor bad.
M47C is wartime code for BSA Shirkey. Most sniper conversions were done on BSAs.
Scope is last model, the No. 32 Mk III and is the best model and easiest to adjust.
Back Sight is a correct Singer Mk I with sniper converstion modification

BAD:
Chest No 15 MK. I is marked for (T LESS TELESCOPE) and these are usually the unfinished Savage conversions. BUT better this original chest than a replica chest or none at all.
Chest condition with problems described a after 75 years of bring bashed about, you too would have some dents and chips etc. The chest protects the rifle and scope --- period. They are rarely identifiable as being matched to the rifle.
Scope case No.8 Mk. I (square corner 2nd pattern) is mismatched and from rifle BSA Shirley 39901 and scope 11220, but is one of three correct types.
Scope case is missing the carrying strap (this is sadly typical, replicas are available from Moore Leather in Scotland)
Forestock was changed but old number 34379 (Also off a BSA Shirley) was barred out so it was PROBABLY adjusted to this rifle. Yes the part affects shooting but as key components are matched it is probably OK.
Rifle is end of war production and was assembled in 1946. This only matters to people who want a rifle that was there and was used in WWII. It could however have been used elsewhere such as the Malayan Emergency, Korean War, Suez 1956 etc.

I suggest that you do not buy it without the chest. Complete sets are becoming VERY hard to find and chests add to the value. Value will go up faster with the chest. However, if you buy it and decide you do not want the chest, that is your choice (not everyone has the storage space for example or an understanding spouse). I am in need of a No. 15 Mk. I chest and would in interested in that if you decide to part with it. :-)

Is this set perfect? No, but it is is VERY good. The most important things all match which is critical for shooting. This scope has 1 minute of angle clicks. The earlier scope clicks were each 2 minutes of angle.

The price is not cheap, but the prices have been rising so it is not outrageous. As most sets are now mismatched scopes/brackets to the rifles, they will never shoot accurately at various ranges as the scope and bracket are not collinated to the barrel (I.e. Not perfectly lined up).

The face veil and ammo pouches are not the "correct" patterns, but that is negligible.

Advice: This is a great candidate for shooting, collecting and investing. The critical thing is the rifle/bracket/scope match. Therefore as Peter Laidler says it will be a collinated set and should shoot well. By far, most sniper sets for sale in North America have mismatched scopes or no scopes (missing or never had one installed). As a matched basic set this will go up in value much faster and farther than any mismatched set.

You could wait until a hundred per cent matched one becomes available but "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush."

Take care of it, preserve it and do not let Cousin Bubba near it! In other words do not drill holes or cut anything off or throw anything away (veil and mag pouches could stay or go).

Seaforth gave you a detailed scholarly evaluation of the rifle and kit. I not only agree with him, but I'd gladly step up to buy it should you decide to pass.

Bros....... Ain't looked at the photos as I've seen several but...... It's always worth remembering, and I have said it many, many times - and expect to repeat it many times again that once a No4T or any other weapon of any kind went into an Armourers shop, then from that moment on, it wasn't original. That's because, if it needed to go into the Armourers shop, then by definition, it was going there because there was something wrong with it! You don't take your car to the workshop because it's running as sweet as a nut do you? And in the service lifetime of weapons, based on nothing more than my limited experience with them, then they go through the small unit, larger Field or (all but...) factory level Base Workshops many times in their lives.

We would think nothing of changing the fore-end as it meant a day on the range the next time the sniper team went. I never saw one in service with a leather sling either. They were the mickey mouse watch of sniper rifles. Looked good but useless when it came to telling the time. And so on............... But I'll keep saying it........

Good as gold. You can worry too much about these things like transit case not matching; at least, in my opinion you can. Mind you, I'm not familiar with Canadian prices. I, also, would not be surprised if the forend came off another 4T at some point.

To those that know, would not an armourer replaced forend always be re-numbered to the rifle? Or would that only occur in the case of FTR at a factory? I noticed this one for sale some time ago but at the price listed I'd assume perfection- it's up there with the highest non-Longbranch prices I've seen here in Canada.

Ridolpho

We would definately re-number a fore-end

Correction of typo: BSA Shirley not BSA Shirkey.

Price is high at CAD $6,000. I paid $75 for one in better condition ... Mind you, that was about 1972! (Sadly fold it later.) Having said that, the fair market value is what a willing buyer and a willing seller agree upon. An American for example can look at that and calculate what that would cost him in "real dollars" ;-) as our Canadian dollar is only about 80 cents US right now.

Peter are you suggesting that because this fore-end was not renumbered to the rifle (as you said that in service you would have) there is reason for concern that maybe this fore-end was not replaced at all by an armorer in service and could have well been replaced by whoever????
I think the price is high too given the fact that the box is not correct and it seems to be in tough shape, the scope can is miss-matched......but hey I think the rifle/scope is real clean and has not been messed with (the screw heads on scope rings and rifle look amazing). The bore is said to be mint and I want a shooter and I've read the horror stories of trying to make miss-matched rifle/scope/mounts shoot...and this one seems to be correct and not messed with so now I have to just decide if I want to pay a premium for a good shooter. We all have made blunders on various rifle dealings over the years and the one that continues to haunt me is selling the "almost" exact same set-up approx 13yrs ago for a mere $1200. It was an elderly friends who had bought it back in the 60's on Younge St in Toronto (can you imagine), he asked me to sell it for him so I took it to a local dealer and what I got I gave it too him. Obviously I should have bought it but I was not into collecting Enfield's at the time. I guess I could try to be more patient and wait for something more correct, but to get all those little ducks in a row I could wait a lifetime and hey I'm not that patient. Thanks for your input so far guys.

The acid test would be actual range work.

I think Peter Laidler would agree that even if the fore-stock had not been properly fitted by a military armourer when switched, that adjusting the pressure which the forearm puts on the barrel is far easier than collimating the scope and bracket to the rifle bore. I believe the instructions for this appear in the Canadian EME instructions.

Typo correction from above: For "(Sadly fold it later.) " read "(Sadly sold it later.) "

The forend poses an interesting dilemma. It is clearly a replacement, & has not been renumbered to this rifle. No doubt this mitigates against it having been done by whilst in UK (or presumably other Commonwealth government) service. However, the number is indicative of a 1944/45 BSA rifle (no prefix so can't be more specific), & has been neatly cancelled, but so as still to be legible, & was also marked along the length of the forend in the first place, suggestive of having been taken off another 4T.

I think it is a very nice rifle, & I would gladly give it house room; but I am ignorant of Canadian prices, which I suspect are probably somewhat lower than the prices one sees here in the UK. So only the OP can say if it is really worth it to him. Is it really priced over the top by Canadian standards??

All you REALLY need to know Bros is that this rifle and mis-matched CES that you've been offered ain't like being offered a Golf GTi that WILL depreciate tomorrow. This rifle WILL cost you more tomorrow - just as sure as eggs is eggs!. Get it and match it up just as we would do in an Armourers shop over a period of years while it's at a unit.

Reminds me of a pure clown I met several years ago.......... Had a No4T and the matching bracket but was looking for THE telescope. Someone on this forum, feeling a tad sorry for his plight, offered him a perfect Mk2 (actually it was an even BETTER converted 2/1) that was 13 or so numbers ahead of what he needed for a completely knocked down price that was fantastic value for money. He declined, stating that he'd look for the ACTUAL telescope. I did mention, diplomatically of course....... or maybe not diplomatically enough....., that he was in the land of the fairies.

The upshot was (........go on........, you've guessed it already) that two years later the donkey STILL hadn't found the actual scope, the very close one had gone to some not-so-worthy made up No4T owner. While the now true donkey had to purchase a totally clapped out Mk1 telescope off that auction site, missing some parts for 80% MORE than the price of the Mk2/1 he was originally offered. AND have it rebuilt and even then it's still not as good as the 2/1 or even a close number.

Words rarely fail me but they did then, believe me..........!

Regarding price, I do not think you are risking much. CAD 6000 = £3,200. A similar set up in the UK would now fetch around £5,000. And so you could export this to the UK at any time (for about CAD 600) and make money.

Peter, one of the things I like about you is......you don't beat around the bush!!!!! You call it like it is!!!!!! You see guys I'm fairly new at this game of purchasing No4MK1 T series rifles as well as being able to identify all those little things that are important when potentially spending $6000.... I'm not a tire kicker, I just want to be sure I'm not buying someone else's problem. We've have had some great dialogue about this rifle and as a result of that I feel comfortable about scrapping some of that mold off my wallet...thanks Peter, Seaforth, Roger and to all others that participated and helped me out

The final arbiter of price is the market, regardless of what it might sell for somewhere else.

If the rifle has been on the market for some time and not sold, there is likely some issue with it or the price is too high for the market it is offered in.

Hi guys well I now am the proud owner of this rifle......put in an offer and we came to the agreement of $5500. Thanks again for all the help.

Nice one Bros, you wont regret it, bought something myself yesterday ( not a T but another trainer) but have to sell a few rifles to make room and to raise the cash.....