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Just picked up one of the CTD Greek .303 crates, plus have a 1944 box of DI Canadian. All are packed 48rds to the box. Why was .303 packed 48 to the box when the SMLE had a 10rd magazine, the Bren a 30rd mag (although usually loaded with 27-28) and the Lewis either a 47 or 97rd pan?
People used to count in dozens for thousands of years, that's all.
Historically, units of time in many civilizations are duodecimal. There are twelve signs of the zodiac, twelve months in a year, and the Babylonians had twelve hours in a day (although at some point this was changed to 24). Traditional Chinese calendars, clocks, and compasses are based on the twelve Earthly Branches. There are 12 inches in an imperial foot, 12 ounces in a troy pound, 12 old British pence in a shilling, 24 (12×2) hours in a day, and many other items counted by the dozen, gross (144, square of 12) or great gross (1728, cube of 12). The Romans used a fraction system based on 12, including the uncia which became both the English words ounce and inch. Pre-decimalisation, Ireland and the United Kingdom used a mixed duodecimal-vigesimal currency system (12 pence = 1 shilling, 20 shillings or 240 pence to the pound sterling or Irish pound), and Charlemagne established a monetary system that also had a mixed base of twelve and twenty, the remnants of which persist in many places.
The importance of 12 has been attributed to the number of lunar cycles in a year, and also to the fact that humans have 12 finger bones (phalanges) on one hand (three on each of four fingers).[6] It is possible to count to 12 with your thumb acting as a pointer, touching each finger bone in turn. A traditional finger counting system still in use in many regions of Asia works in this way, and could help to explain the occurrence of numeral systems based on 12 and 60 besides those based on 10, 20 and 5. In this system, the one (usually right) hand counts repeatedly to 12, displaying the number of iterations on the other (usually left), until five dozens, i. e. the 60, are full.
Source: Wikipedia :D
Well there you go - quaint versus practical! Thanks...
It may have been for utilization of a standard box, crate or other packaging. It probably had nothing to do with a dozen.
loading a box 6 rows of 8 = 48
Egypt used 5 rows of 10
It is not like needing your gravy to just exactly match the number of biscuits.
Ireload has it in one! It was to utilise standard sizes of liners and boxes. The same system still operates today.
I think it's another typical British thing, like driving on the wrong side of the road. You guys just love being different and counting in dozens!
-.455 ammo in a 240 round box = 20 dozen
-.303 ammo in a 288 round box = 24 dozen
-.303 ammo in a 900 round box = 75 dozen
-.303 ammo in a 1008 round box = 84 dozen
-.303 ammo in a 1248 round box = 104 dozen
-.303 ammo in a 1440 round box = 120 dozen
Many of us still regard six and a dozen as far more practical than the use of a decimal system. It may well be easier for the partially brain dead to calculate in tens. But as even smartphones are equipped with the ability to divide and multiply, the advantages of being able to divide by two AND/OR three outweigh any perceivable advantage for the mentally disabled. But leaving things as they are has the added advantage of providing us with demonstrable proof of our historical superiority.
Keep dreaming mateQuote:
Originally Posted by villiers
Thanks; that's why in the U.S. we still by eggs, cookies, beer (six-pack), and time (12 hrs) in this denomination. Okay, makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by villiers
But when it comes to "inches" we divide them into halves, quarters, and eighths; except for gun gauges we divide inches into 10ths!
So how on earth did we get 16 oz in pound and 32 oz for a quart (or 16 oz for a pint of Porter? I'd like my ale in any size :) as long as it's cold). And why wasn't the Fahrenheit scale built on 12s?? And none of us can afford to become brain-dead when it comes to metrics. (when in Canada where I teach) 10 cm of snow (sounds like a lot) is only 4 inches (sounds like a little), and 30C (sounds like a little) is almost 90F (sounds like a lot).
Go figure......Guess that's why tradition is not bound to logic! Hence our irrational, crazy world, generating the need for wars to settle our differences, which beget us -- the collectors who served in the wars -- to save historic artifacts which symbolize the heroic insanity of man fighting man on the battlefield, in the air, and over/under the sea. Now we romanticize the experience, polish the weapons, and mount our artifacts for all to see.
Alas, but for the Heroic Display of Courage and the Preservation of Honor from the Chivalric Age to counter-balance the horror of battle and the smell of death, the memories of war would all be just a delusional march to the cadence of oblivion.
Blessings to all,
Robert, Lt. USNR; Westpac '68 -- Operation Rolling Thunder; Vietnam '72 -- Operation Linebacker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOO5S4vxi0o
The same logic applies to a dozen. It’s 2 more than 10…. so it’s better.
That's a great Video Vince. That explains it all. Had to see it twice but he forgot to explain how noise - as in Db - isn't a regular linear effect but more sumfink else........
No mention of a Bakers dozen ?
...we could move on to the evident advantages of driving on the left (and how only the most advanced societies refused to accept the dictates of the miniscule French dictator). :thup::thup:
I always thought it was to load the pan of a Lewis gun, and have one left over for the chamber. :lol:
Maybe it was so they could load up a bunch of their eight round magazines to be ready for the up and over. Wait! They only have one magazine. Oh, and it is a ten rounder. What the......? I'm at least half Scotch-Irish, so this is said in good humor. I only own three .303 rifles. --Cheers
There are 1,008 farthings to the Guinea. Why would one need to decimalise?
Since ammo was seldom used directly from the box, but instead loaded into stripper clips (chargers), mags or whatever, it really makes no difference how many a box contained. Of course if your theory is that they were being loaded into the 5-round stripper clips, I can see where you might throw in a few extra for the ones that soldiers dropped into the mud fumbling in the trenches (just kidding). Since the previously used military round (577/450) was packed in packs of either 5 or 10, I can't see where the Brits were hooked on the number 12. However I've got .303 loaded by a minimum of 8 countries and they all are magically 48 round boxes.....except for the 20-round Winchester white boxes of the 1980s supplied as aid to the Afghans during the Soviet incursion.
I'm inclined to go for the Lewis gun explanation. We were always told a similar story in the cadets. 47 to load the drum with a spare to use on the gas regulator, or whatever drill the Lewis pamphlet said required the use of a round as a tool.
This is why they packed .303, 48 to the box !....................
Lewis gun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Lewis gun utilised two drum magazines, one holding 47 rounds, the other 97..."Quote from text"
Unfortunately that's already been suggested. I roar at that explanation, after being in the army my whole life I know they don't do things that way. For all they care ammo can be issued in a bucket with a lid.
You are SOOOOOOO right BAR. They really don't care what quantities it comes in just so long as there's enough when he needs it
Cadets were told a lot of other rubbish by their Adult Instructors as well. (I often had to bite my lip.) The (Greek) 48 round boxes used by cadets were bought especially for them - and that's how the ammunition came packaged. (Because the moron on the MoD who sold off all the .303 forgot about them.)Quote:
Originally Posted by harry mac
The magazines of the section Section Light Machine Gun, like the Lewis and the Bren were filled from the ammunition carried by the Section's riflemen, so no need for anything special. The riflemen would carry their ammunition in 50 round expendable bandoliers.
As to the regular ammunition, Peter answered the question way back. The strange numbers are to fit the standard packing. So training ammunition (packed in cartons) came cartons of 32 round which translated into 288 rounds in a plywood outer. The same outer contained 250 rounds belted or 300 rounds in bandoliers. (All numbers IIRC) (BTW, that was the British standard - can't speak for others.)