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Good evening, Gentlemen,
I believe that pre-WW1 NRA or "sales" rifles in original condition are occasionally available. But would I be correct in the notion that those rifles issued to the military that have not been rearsonaled or altered in some way are fairly rare?
Thank you for your time,
EdwardB
Yes...
Yes indeed. That's why they command high prices.
But I have four of such unaltered 03's made during WWI, so they can be found. None of mine appear to have ever been on a battlefield.
Not what he asked Fred.
Yes, My error... PRE WWI rifles. My mistake. Thanks for the correction Jim.
Ah, yes ...a thing of beauty! :D
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The earlier ones have flowery numbers...but that one's still nice Rick.
It's Beautiful!
Like this one ... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
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Exactly. Some seemed even morso.
Yes, beautiful rifles! And in great condition - especially the first example.
Rick, I totally get it---The crisp finger grooves, beautiful color of the stocks and the metal work were done by people that would not compromise on quallity. These rifles are a pleasure to look at and to hold. I have a few rifles like that and I take them out occasionally just to to do so. It makes me think of all the people that worked on these rifles and of all the engineering and processes required to produce them. Fantastic! Salt Flat
Ricks rifes are top shelf. Here's the all original 4 digit one I have, All correct early issue built up by the arsenal using RB and 30-03 parts. Ray
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Wow, all Fantastic rifles guys! I'm green with envy...
I've got one four digit rifle that has been restored back to original configuration and so isn't in the same category of never being altered, even though it's in correct form now. However that doesn't count.
This rifle came from a very old gunsmith's estate sale in KY some years ago. Springfield s/n 160963 with a SA 2-07 dated barrel (nice bore too) all original nothing changed and still with the original no bolt stockAttachment 59886Attachment 59887
Great photos! Man, early no stock bolt rifles are tough to find. I'll bet the rest of that rifle is something to see too. Got any more photos?
Fred, I have a few but almost out of photo space. Attachment 59892Attachment 59893Attachment 59894
Wow. Even the trigger guard is an early one of the Rod Bayonet type.
There is something classic/majestic looking about the earliest 03's with their 1st pattern parts, boltless stocks and high profile hand guards. The Krag has that look to me also.
Anyway I can't resist not posting my early first year 03 again which was one of the first RI 1903 rifles produced after the Rod bayonet rifle that came off the line in normal production where the receiver and barrel dates match and was not assembled from RB and 30-03 parts but with mostly newly manufactured components. Everything is as it should be for a rifle coming off the line in the 1st few months of normal RI production of an 1903 rifle including a 1908 cartouched stock that's only cut for the split leg rear sight band. Here's a page from the "Springfield Model 1903 Service Rifle" by John Beard and C.S. Ferris as you can see the rifle serial number fits in there for 1907. It has a trials 1907 sling on it dated 1905. Ray
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Ray, My Rock Island serial number 64145 has a RIA 3-07 dated barrel and doubt it has been through any rebuild (bore is exc too) it has the early rear sight leaf and slide.
Have you and Fred noticed that some Rock Island rear sight leafs are without the top rib and have the square left side on the rear sight slide ? is this rear sight unique only to Rock Island rifles ? or could
it be found on early Springfield rifles too
Here's my early Rock Island rifle, 16093. It took me a lot of looking and it wasn't cheap (I had to trade one of my NRA Sales rifles PLUS cash for it!), but it is a beaut. Keep in mind that, according to Ferris and Beard, the first RIAs were parts sets and there is some doubt that more than a handful of RIA Rod Bayonet rifles were assembled. It has one of the earliest barrels I have seen, a RIA 6-05.
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Guys I have an SA #106840 with 8-06 barrel with A under the date. All parts sights, knobs, bolt no groove handguard all appear original. Now the bad part. Someone before I got it changed the buttstock. It now has a 03-a3 stock with a coarse checkered, no trap buttplate.
Any thoughts where I might find a correct stock to restore it?
Thanks
Tom
I saw one with a CN cartouche on it two years ago up at a Kansas City gun show that the guy was asking 450.00 for. Not needing it, I walked on. So, they are still out there...
Thanks Fred. I will keep my eyes open
Not wanting to be left out of the game... Here's my early 1903. The only one that I have. It was assembled from original early parts of course that for the most part aren't even available anymore, including the original stock. Try to find one of Those today as well as a 30-03 barrel... Ha! As soon as I find another that's still in its original form and is sitting in a bank vault, I'll throw this one away.
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I finally found and bought a rather expensive and original first type sling for the Rod Bayonet rifle too
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The bolt body is correctly and still originally polished...
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Ah, yes, that trumps them all!
Thanks Rick. However I don't think that my rifle can compare with all of the other fine, fine rifles that you guys have displayed here. Yours are all original in form and mine has just been assembled from original Rod Bayonet 03 parts. I really like everyone's early rifles! I AM Green with envy of you all! :D
The rod bayonet rifles are the kind of art I was referring too also. Even parts guns, because the others don't seem to be out there.
Attachment 59911 Attachment 59910 Trade ya!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred G.
If you throw in a Pepperoni Pizza and a case of Bilekin Beer, I just might! :thup:
We may disagree about whether to shoot low-numbered M1903s, but I don't think any of us will disagree that they are the epitome of the military rifle-maker's art!
There ought to be some out there somewhere Jim that are just sitting in a closet or an old building. or a very dusty gun cabinet. I guess they show up almost as infrequently as original Colt Walkers. Heck, even a mismatching Walker would be great to hold in one's hands. I guess that if somebody could assemble a complete Walker Colt from original spare Walker parts found in an old box within the old Whitneyville arms factory where they were assembled or even from an excavated bunker on Bannerman's Island, It could possibly still be defined as a Walker. I know that I wouldn't turn one like that down.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I've read an opinion that of the 100 or so Rod Bayonet 1903's that are known today, about 50 of them are reconverted rifles or corrected specimens or assembled from original parts. That the other 50 or so Rod Bayonet 03's are still in their original form. That number certainly IS less than the known Colt Walkers known to have survived.
I wonder if this rifle will one day be allowed to be part of an exhibition of Rod Bayonet 1903's at an NRA show or a big Gun Show somewhere like they had for the Walker Colts at that big Gun Show years ago...
Oh, of the Walkers that were accepted for the exhibition, I've read that there were three times as many more that couldn't be absolutely verified as to Provenance or originality. Seems to me that there must've been Walkers within those rejected that were indeed original. I've read that the experts looking at all of the Walkers submitted needed to NOT give legitimacy to a potential fake and so they had to reject potential or probabale originals. Just an interesting side note...
Texas Gun Collectors Association
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian
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Amen to THAT Rick. Even further, any and all U.S. martial arms assembled at Springfield Armory are in my opinion the high tide of mass produced quality arms production.
The rod bayonet rifle would be one I wouldn't even worry about barrel condition, it could be a Buick tailpipe and it'll be fine. Much like a gastrap barrel. Date/time group is more important. As for showing it, display it at any of the shows with a disclaimer attached and see if anyone complains...or makes you an offer.
I'm fortunate that the barrel on this RB rifle has a shiny and sharp bore. I don't think it'd been used much after undergoing Proofing at SA. Just for the fun of it, let me see if I can take a clear photo of it and post. Apparently the barrel and receiver were obtained from one of the 1905 updated rifles still in 30-03. That's why it's still in 30-03 it seems. I wonder what was done with the original 1905 stock...? I suppose that one could alter the original RB stock to 1905 specifications, locate another early rear sight sleeve, find a 2400 yard rear sight leaf and an early slide, change the early butt plate for a later one with a bigger trap, ect. ect. to make a 1905 rifle in 30-03, but that ain't gonna happen.
Here's the bore as best as I'm able to get focused...
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When did they quit using Platinum in the rear sights, and what was the size Peep in those slides with Platinum?
Fred, my Rock Island s/n 64145 with RIA 3-07 barrel has the early rear sight with the vertical platinum line, the peep hole is #4. My SA 160963 has a peep hole of #5 both peep sights are not marked.
I also have a #5 and I have #5 X out and stamped #6
I have a #8 and the USMC is a #10
Thanks. I found a #7 not long ago. I wonder if they made a # 9?
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This original 1907 complete with sling and oiler I got off gun broker a couple of years ago no one bid on it I think I got it for 900
That is one fine looking rifle!
Nice rifle and for a great price. Apparently the average collector doesn't recognize the value of these early 03's as I picked that early 1907, first run RI, I posted above for only $725 total, last year on Gun broker also. Ray
You guy's are both lucky!
[QUOTE=rice 123;323322 This original 1907 complete with sling and oiler I got off gun broker a couple of years ago no one bid on it I think I got it for $900
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Just noticed those notches on the hand guard are intentionally cut. Either they are for battle kills or number of deer taken with the rifle. I have an all original period untouched condition M1A1 paratrooper with notches also, that I would bet are battle kills, as the gun shows other war use because the steel metal sling ends have been painted over with OD paint to prevent any reflection. Makes you wonder where they have been. Ray
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Way Cool!
Here's an early one that might not be a service rifle.
That's a beauty....What am I missing that you don't think it's a service rifle? Could you post more photos in order to make a better judgment. Looks like the gas release hole on the left side of the receiver may be plugged, maybe cosmoliene? It does have the early solid hand guard with no sight grove. Nice rifle. Ray
Wow. That rifle is phenomenal. Wow again...!Quote:
Originally Posted by m1903rifle
More pictures
And still more pictures. A well known authority on M1903 rifles says that this rifle might be a very early NRA Sales rifle.
That rifle is just absolutely Pristine! I'm GREEN with Envy! :D
Attachment 59978Attachment 59979 Wow! That's it, I'm throwing mine away! Ray
You also have a magnificent rifle. Any history with it? The only "story" that I got with mine was that it was sold by Scott Duff. He said that it came out of a museum in PA.Does anyone know who BHM was? I've seen a Hoffer-Thompson with the same cartouche.
He was an early inspector at Springfield - to my knowledge, no idea who he was. Brophy has him at Springfield from 1909-1914, but I'm not sure how accurate that is - I'd guess he was inspecting rifles a couple of years earlier.
I've got a rifle (230,477) with his inspection stamp, as well.
Sorry, no history on the rifle and nothing further on who B.H.M. is than Rick the Librarian posted.
My BHM rifle I got in 2006 or 2007. The only "history" was that the seller (a Jouster member) wanted me to post a picture of the rifle with the "Afghan" (you older guys remember THAT, don't you?? :D )
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Here's a picture of the inspection stamp - very faint:
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My my eyes... I can't focus my eyes! OMG... I can't see anything after looking at that picture...! O...M...G!
What picture? Is there a picture there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred G.
I hope this doesn't approach the level of "blasphemy", but the only other rifle that approaches the early M1903 in looks and workmanship is the early Model 1898 Mauser GEW. I admit I don't like that "ski-jump" rear sight, but other than that, also a work of art. Picked up one a year or two ago.
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Yes, when those rifles are in good shape, they're really something too...
I have one too, but it appears to be a normal service rifle and not NRA sales.
Very nice too, the wood looks a bit lighter than I'd have expected.
Man, That is just down right 1903 Springfield Porn...! I'm amazed at the condition of that rifle. Crisp and Unmolested by time as well as careless handling. Wow. Wow
I'd be willing to bet a NRA Sales rifle, as well. Just for curiosity, is the raceway inside the chamber and the follower rib polished?
No it isn't.
I'm with Rick...it's likely a Sales rifle. I would love to have it to go with my '09.
John once said it still has the original finish, both on the stock and the action itself. My favorite M1903 however is what John identified as a Officers Purchase. It was equipped with a 1000 yards Lyman 48C, plus a Winchester A5 telescope. More dings and dangs, but I also love it for the fact that someone wanted to part it out on ebay.com, and I was able to buy all of them and agree upon a price of the "rest", what was mainly the barreled action.
€dit: changed the two big images to the links of the whole set..
Yes Rick I remember the afgan. The first time I remember seeing it was on Jouster
That's where I usually "displayed" it - it got the most "feedback"! :D
Rick, when are you getting your newest acquisition? Is it still on the way?
Got it ... just have to wait and take some better pictures. I use natural light and we've had some dark days, when I've been home.
drool!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian
Yea, ain't that a Grand rifle?!
My thanks to all of you who took the time to share your beautiful rifles with those of us less fortunate. Just spent a very pleasant hour viewing/reviewing details on all of them. I'm even glad to know that RtL still has his afghan.
Kept, safely packed away. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Alkali
Rick, your Rock Island SN 16093 doesn’t have the straight leg 7 on the sight leaf. I have RIA SN 17927 with all the same features that your rifle has including the 7 on the sight leaf. I thought RIA sights of that vintage had the straight leg 7. What is the latest theory on when the straight leg 7 RIA leaf sight was used?
Dang ... you could be right - have to take a closer look.:confused:
I have to repeat Alkali in saying the best 8 pages I've gone through just looking at these beautiful rifles. My thanks to all of you!
This is the rear sight leaf and with the slide with a square corner. The peep is not numbered and without the top rib on the leaf. This sight has been on the rifle for a long timeAttachment 60584Attachment 60585
I now checked the rifle and since I anway took a few pictures of another piece from the collection, I thought why not of this M1903 aswell. Note the non-polished rails and the colour-hardened firing pin, cutoff and safety.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick the Librarian
That is one of the prettiest 1903's that I can remember seeing. Maybe there are some I've seen that are like it, but I couldn't say that I've seen more than the fingers on one hand if That many at all. Absolutely Beautiful!
Promo, Beautiful rifle! Your photography and lighting are as nice as the rifle. Salt Flat
You would be surprised to find out the camera was an iPhone (5) - but that might help understanding that good pictures are mainly based on good light. Of course a digital camera image is even better, but unless the picture is required for a publication, I'm satisfied with this quality.
And of course thanks for the nice comments on the rifle. Besides that, note that it's a so-called "High-Wall" stock, with only one reinforcement bolt. The meaning of the R in the magazine cutoff, the S on top of the handguard and the 4 behind the triggerguard is, is something which only John can answer.
Can see your hand holding the phone in the reflection off the trigger guard..;)
Apple products rock!!!...except the stupid new watch...:(
That trigger guard/magazine plate look to be nitre blued as per the old ways.
The S stamp at the rear of the handguard, I found it in "Springfield 1903 Service Rifle. Production and Alteration" by C.S. Ferris and John Beard. The handguard was reduced in length by 0.2 inches and the letter S was stamped near the rear sight swell to indicate the handguard had been shortened from the 1905 handguard. I have a handguard with the letter S stamp too, but my handguard is also with the two handguard clips but does have the rear sight cut
Many thanks for this thread, especially the pics. IMHO, the 1903 Springfield is the most beautiful military rifle ever made. Before I started lurking here I thought my 1919 barreled rifle was really something. Now I'm going to have to really examine it to see what all is original.
Several years ago a fella had a rod bayonet '03 at one of the small, local gunshows. The two-hole front sight was what first caught my eye and the bayonet soon followed. It was priced far beyond my means, but I asked the seller if he knew any history on the rifle, his story was interesting, believable or not.
According to him the rifle had been in his wife's family forever and she had received it upon her fathers death. According to the family lore, her grand father had been a member of the Tennessee National Guard and due to a feud between families had stolen the rifle from the armory and fled to the mountains for several years. Upon his return nothing was ever said about the rifle and he was afraid to turn it in, not wanting to go to jail. It had been in their family ever since.
Like I said, believe it or not it's an interesting tale.
Rob
Wow Rob, that's pretty interesting. The rifles were indeed mostly issued to National Guard units as well as to the Military Academy in the U.S. Cool accounting of the history of that rifle! Thanks for Posting Rob!
Hey, if you don't mind me asking, what was the price of the rifle back then?
Fred
Fred I'm sorry for the late answer, been kinda under the weather. I had to call my running buddy to try and remember close to when it was...all we could agree on was that George W. was President. LOL.
The seller had a $4,500 tag on it then and the way he acted he didn't care if it sold or not. He was very friendly in letting us examine and handle the rifle. He only had two or three military rifles on his table, lots of hunting shotguns and rifles and I think he used the old gun as a "magnet" to draw people in. It sure caught my eye.
Rob
Well, guess even back than you should have bought that rifle. You never happened again to meet that guy, did you?
LOL If I had had the money I probably would have. I saw him at other gun shows back in that time period, but since I retired I only make the little one here in my home town.
Rob