Is there a reference available detailing armourer inspection marks? If a barrel has two star stamps in front of the knocks form, is that evidence of an issue?
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Is there a reference available detailing armourer inspection marks? If a barrel has two star stamps in front of the knocks form, is that evidence of an issue?
A single * in front of knox form or in any other area of the barrel indicates rust near that mark. Two ** on knox form indicates moderate pitting of rifling or throat. There is no reference to two ** on barrel in front of knox form..... Skennerton's The Lee Enfield. It may possibly mean badly pitted in the area of those marks?
You obviously have a Lithgow Rifle or Barrel.
The stars circling an 'A' are view marks, early barrels had four, post 1935 barrels only had two, you may occaisionally find an Inspection stamp with them or if you are lucky, you may have a letter, S, L or K representing the steel the barrel was made from(1 and 2 on early barrels.)
Attachment 59922Attachment 59923Attachment 59924
Hi MuffQuote:
Originally Posted by muffett.2008
Would you explain the S L K and the 1 & 2 please
The Broad Arrow By Skennerton it is a great reference but like all his books getting up there in price
Hey Bindii........what happened to that info I requested?
Now you're trying to pick my brains on all my research:madsmile: Don't tell Demo, but I had to pull a '14 barrel just to verify some of it.
The letter/number code was implemented during 1914 production to identify the steel used, as per the specification to govern Manufacture and Inspection.
It was previously thought that this mark was polished out on final finishing(maybe so on Brit. Rifles) however, due to the problems with the sourced steel from England and the high failure rate on inspection, an in house decision was made to identify the steel used in event of failure.
According to in factory notes between Arthur Wright(factory Manager) and his cousin Herbert Wright(chief Viewer and barrel setter) the identifiers 1 and 2 were used to distinguish between steel from Enfield Lock and other British suppliers and was stamped on the face of the barrel, on the nocks and on the receiver near the Main screw mount.
This location proved contentious, often being obliterated and not remarked on the nocks and not visable on the face of the barrel when assembled. Discussion on changing to letter identifiers was underway when both A.C Wright and Herbert Wright left the factory in mid 1915, leaving the changes to be implemented by the new incoming Inspection Team, who were to be led by F.E Hart(whose heavy handed actions stopped production).
The letter code S was for all foreign steel sourced through the Eagle Globe Steel Co. Sydney, the L was for the steel being sourced from Hoskins Steel, Lithgow, and the K was a later addition for steel sourced from BHP Kembla foundary.
This code seems to have remained in place until about 1935/36, when it faded into obscurity, probably because testing standards and steel quality were markedly improved and no failures had been recorded since 1920.
Although a more recent letter had appeared on later barrels manufactured at Orange..........not sure if this was a check on the standards of manufacture from that plant........started to lose interest about there..........
The barrel was(and still is) the most important component, the information on the original barrel contained all the relavant information, this was lost on barrel replacement, the new barrel only having(if in service change) the date of fitment and S/N, if done outside the system, the only marks would be the first four Inspection and view marks.(sometimes not even that)
Which leads me to the next point. New barrels were not dated on manufacture, the date stamped on them is when they were assembled to an action, either as a new rifle or replacement component...........pity, because now there are fewer and fewer originals left to verify the origins of the firearm.
This information pertains to Lithgow Rifles, no detailed Inspection has been done on other firearms and is only what I have gleaned from the Inspection of firearms(Begged and borrowed) barrels and records available.
Thanks Muff Mums the word.
So,to be clear, are the small star marks indicative of rust, pitting or other problems, or simply inspection marks confirming that that barrel was reviewed? The barrel in question is SMLE heavy barrel.
Muff you have a PM :thup:
"Don't tell Demo"
I'm right here mate!
QUOTE=SpikeDD;323214]A single * in front of knox form or in any other area of the barrel indicates rust near that mark. Two ** on knox form indicates moderate pitting of rifling or throat. There is no reference to two ** on barrel in front of knox form..... Skennerton's The Lee Enfield. It may possibly mean badly pitted in the area of those marks?[/QUOTE]
Armourer's Wing Precis Volume II
Attachment 59941Attachment 59942Attachment 59943Attachment 59944Attachment 59945Attachment 59946[
If you have a heavy barrel, then it is definately a Lithgow, these barrels were not produced by any other country.
Heavy barrels were produced from 1932 on, specifically for the Rifle Club Movement, but also were used in the H rifles and were fitted to Service rifles in the last years of the war, the markings on a H barrel will have a large H on the nocks, you may have the letters AJ, AV or VS in close proximetry to the stars.
You have not said if the stars match what I have pictured or if they are the rust * astericks.
Here are some photos of the barrel in question - thoughts?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tbp9qvqd-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...awj0btmu-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hwpmvxob-1.jpg
Muffer I just read your earlier post. All very interesting but barrels dated on assembly? I know its been tossed back and forward over the years but I'm not convinced on that one.
---------- Post added at 01:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 PM ----------
Yes that's a Lithgow heavy profile barrel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailcreek
Would the two stars imply throat erosion?
No, they are Manufacture view marks, the first stamped at completion of the fine bored stage, the second at the completion of the Rifled stage.
There are four such stamps on barrels produced and fitted while the Inspection Branch was under control of F.E Hart from 1915 to 1922. Attachment 60004These extra stamps were due to the use of parallel rifleing and a P in a heart was added to the nocks.Attachment 60011
The first four View marks around the nocks, were added at seperate stages of Manufacture, the Roman Numeral stamped under the star was added by the Inspection branch, to signify that the barrel had completed each phase successfully and was able to be mated to a receiver.Attachment 60010
( This was the responsibility of Manufacturing Inspectors until late 1915 when the Inspection branch was added to the factory.)
The receiver underwent ten such inspections (twenty on early year rifles) before the breeching up phase, after proofing and chamber final finish, the complete rifle is stamped on barrel and nocks with a Lithgow proof, Attachment 60005 and the fifth view mark is stamped by both Manufacture and Inspection branch,(Early rifles may have up to ten such stamps)Attachment 60009 After completion of sighting and final fitment, the completed rifle has a sixth mark added and the barrel, action,bolt, nosecap and forewood are stamped with a serial number and a final Inspection stamp is added to the barrel by the out Inspector.Attachment 60008Attachment 60007
The barrel on rifles up to 1925 were considered to be the main component and the entire rifles history was recorded on both the front of the receiver and barrel nocks.
In the event of a barrel change the barrel was stamped as a replacement, if a receiver, the S/N was struckout and the barrel number stamped on the receiver. This process was reversed after 1925 and the Receiver became the main assembly.
Attachment 60006
So in the event of a barrel or component change post that period, all means of acurately following the history of the firearm became more difficult (not a care to the Military, they were'nt collectors) other stampings on the timber by Units and Military Districts and Factory/Workshop repair stamps and FTR's were added. (just to add to the confusion.)
If the firearm was subjected to work outside the Military stream, than all means of following it's history became rapidly blurred, unstamped and undated or old dated barrels, incorrect bolts and butts and other parts changed
Also to add to the confusion will be Steel Batch Marks (SBM).
Its well documented about Lithgow's L1A1 SBM's production. SBM marks were applied to British Production and should also be with Canadian production (although there is very little information about Canadian rifles).
From what I have seen at Lithgow Museum, the ledgers used to record the details for each L1A1 rifle's s/n, steel batch marks, proofing, accuracy, assembly date, shipping date, shipping depot etc would of also applied to earlier weapons (SMLE, Vickers and Bren) produced by them as the 1959 ledgers had to be converted to suit the number of SBM components on a L1A1 rifle.
Has anyone done a study into the SMLE, Vickers or Bren Steel Batch Markings? using the L1A1 SBM as a guide?
In addition to the great advice provided by the above posts by the great Milsurps "league of experts," be sure to see:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailcreek
Lee Enfield Rifle Markings
BTW, thanks to all you contributors for the advice. I just bought a 1918 Lithgow yesterday on GB (Australian Enfield Lithgow SHT.LE MK III 1918 .303 : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com ) (my first Lithgow) and will be applying your wisdom to this gun too. Thanks for continually reaffirming the old adage: "Sharing Expands, Hording Contracts" in expanding the knowledge about these historic masterpieces.
Robert