1903-a4 Scope Question...

Hello to all from a relative "Newbie" to this site. Really impressed by all the threads I've been reading. Have a question regarding the scopes used on the 1903-a4's....

Recently acquired a very nice 1903-a4 from a family member of a WWII (or Korean War?) vet. Rifle looks as if it was never issued and has a rather rare "Z" prefix serial number, which according to info I've read, dates it to Jan-Feb '44 manufacture or issue. Rifle came with original staked Redfield scope mount, but no scope or rings. Have acquired correct 3/4" scope rings and am trying to figure out which scope was originally issued with this rifle.

I understand that the Weaver model 330-C, which was a commercial model, was originally selected as the scope for this rifle, and was later assigned the military designation M73B1. I have read that early Weaver scopes for this rifle were marked either model 330-C, M73B1, or even model 330 M-8. However, the models 330-C that I have seen have adjustment knobs that were friction-locked, whereas the military specs required "click-adjustments", which only the model 330-M 8 has. I assume that the M73B1 is the same.

My questions are; Is the model 330 M-8 the correct "early" scope used on the 1903-a4? At what point in time were all Weaver scopes marked M73B1? Given the manufacture dates of the rifle I mention, what was the correct scope for it at that time? And at what point in time did the Lyman Alaskan take over as the standard military issue sniper scope in WWII for the 1903-a4? I have a chance to buy an Weaver 330 M-8 and want to make sure it's correct for this rifle.

Thanks to all for any & all input. --728shooter

1. No Weaver scopes were marked 330C. The weaver scopes, either the click adjusted 330 C or the Screw adjusted 330 S (Silent) were simply marked 330. It's possible the commercial packaging may have been marked as to the style of adjustment and reticle.

2. Remington was behind the eight ball on A4 deliveries in early 1943. The main reason for the delay was Weaver's inability to deliver scopes as fast as Remington could build rifles. To meet the delivery schedule Weaver rounded up as many 330 C scopes with Crosswire Reticles and as many 330 Scope - M.8 with tapered post reticle as it could find in US commercial channels. These commercial scopes were mounted on rifles and delivered to the Army. Based on scope serial numbers the aggregate quantity of commercial scopes may have been as many as a few thousand units. Thereafter Weaver ramped up production of the 330C but added military nomenclature and a serial number to the side of the tube with electro-pencil.
It is unclear just exactly what the commercial nomenclature "330 Scope - M.8" signified. Regular 330C and 330S scopes were both catalogued with crosswire and post reticles. 330 Scope - M.8's are encountered today with both click and screw adjustments.

3. By about serial number 5000~ (early mid 43) all Weaver 330C scopes were marked "Telescope, M73B1" in electropencil or rolled stamping on the W&E plate.

4. A "Z" Series A4 would most likely have been issued with a scope stamped:
Telescope, M73B1
Pats. Pend.
W.R. Weaver CO.
El Paso, TEX USA

The words Serial No. would be stamped on the side of the tube and the actual number NNNNN applied with an electropencil.
The adjustment knobs may have had plain flat tops or the resettable zeroing plate anchored by a small screw. Abetter guess could be made if we had the full serial no.

5. Although the Lyman Alaskan was approved for use on the A4 in Dec 42 and later militarized as the M73 none were delivered prior to the end of A4 production. It was never the standard scope for the A4 in WW2. About 1956 an Ordnance directive was published which specified that the primary and alternate scopes for the A4 were the M73B1 and the M84 respectively. At the same time units were authorized to use any remaining M73, M81 or M82 scopes on hand in the event the primary and alternate scopes were unavailable.

6. A 330 Scope - M.8 would be most appropriate on a very early A4. However keep in mind this was a piece of commercial gear pressed into military service and not an official piece of "issue" equipment.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Jim

Jim --
Thank you very much for such a detailed and informative response! Even though my 03-A4 has a barrel dated 9-43, I'm sure it wasn't issued until early '44, so it most likely would have had the M73B1 marked scope as you mention. However, since the prices on a correct M73B1 are a bit beyond my budget, and since the 330 SCOPE - M 8 that I'm looking at is at least correct for an 03-A4, I think I will be putting the M 8 on my 04.............(for now)..... The optics are perfect, it has the click-adjustment knobs, the post reticle, and even comes with the original leather end caps (which I think were only furnished on the sniper scopes?).

But I will be on the look-out for a M73B1....!!!

Thanks again, --728shooter

728,
That's a very reasonable approach.

Just so you you know in the summer of 1943 ordnance instructed Remington to assemble 1000 M1903A4's and have them standing by for delivery of scopes. At that time they were anticipating the delivery of the Lyman Alaskans at virtually any moment. After a short time the inventory of 1000 A4's was again bumped to 2000 A4's.

Now Remington had no trouble building the rifles and the components for the same. I believe M1903A3 production at the time peaked at around 60,000 units a month! So in order to meet the inventory requirements for A4's Remington produced a bumper crop of parts. July, August and Sept 43 barrels we're used on rifles assembled and shipped from July to February 1944.

The "Z" series rifles are interesting since they came about through an error. Ordnance had assigned the s/n range of 4,000,001 to 4,015,000 for the second order of M1903A4 rifles (8,365 units). The A4's were being built in what had been the model or pilot production shop while the main part of plant was cranking out M1903A3 rifles.
The A3 production inadvertently overran the new s/n range assigned to the second order of A4's. By the time anyone noticed almost 3000 A4 receivers had been numbered with S/N's already used on A3's. Since the quantity of A4's was comparatively small and Remington was compelled to wait for scopes anyway the decision was made to mark the duplicate A4 Receivers with a "Z" in front of the S/N. A third serial number block starting at 4,992,001. This block was used for the remaining portion of the 2nd A4 order and would have also been used for A3 production except the A3 was cancelled in Feb 44.

Regards,

Jim

More than likely your rifle was one of the early NRA/DCM sales rifles as they came with the base but no scope or rings. Some appeared to be unissued since manufacture.

I purchased this rifle from a young man in early 2013 at a small gun show in my area. I saw it was a 1903-A3 but having not been familiar with the A4 version at the time, I just assumed it was a basic A3. The young man (who was there with his mother, by the way...), went on to explain that the rifle was given to him by his uncle when he was 10 years old. All he remembered his uncle telling him was that there were no records of this rifle anywhere, and that it basically "didn't exist". My interpretation of this was that it probably "followed" the uncle home in his duffel bag after the war. I have no reason to doubt this young man's story as his mother was standing next to him all the time.

I asked him why he was selling it and he said he had no interest in guns, didn't know anything else about it and it was just sitting in his closet all these years (must not have had any sentimental value to him either). He was also very apologetic for the fact that it was missing the front sight. My initial thoughts on this was that someone in the past probably tried to turn it into a hunting rifle, hence, the Redfield scope base installed on the receiver. It never occurred to me at the time that this rifle was anything other than a standard 1903-A3. Even with the "missing" parts, the rifle was in excellent condition, so I gave him his asking price and took it home. It wasn't until a few months later that I started doing some research on it & discovered what it really was....

-- 728shooter

It sounds like you really got lucky. Your story is the kind of thing that collectors dream of.

I suspect that few A4's were stolen from the military. They were too long to fit in a duffel bag, & GI's were unlikely to have the screwdrivers needed to take one apart. Pistols were a lot easier to hide......

A small quantities of A4's were sold by DCM in the early 60's. Quantities were too small to have an advertised sale, so they went to competitive shooters & members of the military who were "in the know". Their existence was unknown to collectors at the time, & many were sporterized.

Several hundred were sold by CMP in a lottery in 1999. Condition A rifles came with the scope base installed, Condition B rifles came without a scope base. The left windage adjustment screw may be staked, so remove only the right screw to install your scope.

You might want to post photos of your rifle for us. Whether it is "unissued" or "unissued since rebuild" might give you more choices in your scope selection.

Bruce Canfield (August 1999 American Rifleman Q&A column) believes that the M8 scope was produced only for a military contract, after the M73B1 scopes began to be delivered.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._scope_3-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._scope_1-1.jpg

Neal

Neal Myers, Thank You very much for your input & comments! I will try & post pictures when I get the A4 out of the safe to install the scope. As to your comments about "I suspect that few A4's were stolen from the military"...., I have a feeling that this was one of them. The young man I purchased it from made it sound that his uncle "procured it" by rather clandestine methods....

Interesting that some of the CMP rifles were classified as either A or B grade. I'll have to check mine to see if only the only the left windage screw is staked. However, given the background that I received, I can't help but believe that this was a war bring-back rather than a CMP rifle. As for the lottery rifles, I believe this young man obtained it well before 1999...

The M.8 scope I have looks exactly like the one you show in your pics except that the "data" info is located directly under the turret knob plate, as opposed to being further down the tube as shown in your photos I have Weaver S-29's that are similarily marked. I know that Weaver scopes from that era had a variety of ID stampings, I just wonder if the type ( and location of such) can identify as to the time frame to when they were manufactured. Strange that the M.8 designation was produced "after" the M73B1 scopes were being delivered.....

Thanks again, --728shooter

Attachment 60612Attachment 60621Attachment 60620Attachment 60619Attachment 60618Attachment 60617Attachment 60616Attachment 60615Attachment 60614Attachment 60613Attachment 60610Attachment 60611Attachment 60622Finally got some time to take a few pics of my A4. Lighting wasn't that good, came out kinda dark, may get better results outside in daylight.

Thanks for the additional pictures.
Two more questions: Is there a punch mark on the underside of the barrel (6 o'clock) roughly centered between the front sight cuts? How many grooves are there in the barrel?

One suggestion. Loosen the three screws that clamp the scope tube and slide the scope tube forward. Leave about a 1/16" clearance between the front edge of the data plate and the back of the rear ring.

Your rifle was undoubtedly used and subsequently rebuilt at Rock Island Arsenal. The 9/43 barrel is in all likelihood the original as is the keystone scant stock with factory inspection stamps. I agree this rifle is most likely a DCM sales rifle.

i would not pay any mind to the assertions that there are "no records anywhere".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JGaynor

Thanks for the additional pictures.
Two more questions: Is there a punch mark on the underside of the barrel (6 o'clock) roughly centered between the front sight cuts? How many grooves are there in the barrel?

One suggestion. Loosen the three screws that clamp the scope tube and slide the scope tube forward. Leave about a 1/16" clearance between the front edge of the data plate and the back of the rear ring.

Your rifle was undoubtedly used and subsequently rebuilt at Rock Island Arsenal. The 9/43 barrel is in all likelihood the original as is the keystone scant stock with factory inspection stamps. I agree this rifle is most likely a DCM sales rifle.

i would not pay any mind to the assertions that there are "no records anywhere".

---

Jim --
Thank you very much for the reply and the suggestions. I did move the scope forward as you mentioned and agree, the eye-relief is much more comfortable and more "natural" feeling.

As to the punch mark, I did look carefully where you mentioned and yes, there is a faint punch-mark at about the 5 o'clock position! Never noticed this before, but then again, you guys are the experts and that's what I'm here to learn about. What exactly does this mark mean? My guess is its an arsenal rebuild mark? And the barrel is a 4-groove barrel and mirror-shiny. I don't have a muzzle gauge to measure it but I don't have any doubts that it is within tolerances.

Is there any way to determine if this is in fact a DCM sales rifle? And if so, does that take away anything from its value? Its getting to sound more like the "no records anywhere" may have been just a bit of hype by "Uncle Whoever", only adding to the mystique of its origin, I guess.....

--728shooter

The punch mark. Remington was required to select rifles for "accuracy and smoothness of operation". Remington management decided they would address the accuracy requirement by air gauging the barrels and maintaining control of the uniformity of the final ream dimension.
I suspect the punch mark was how they identified approved A4 barrels in the plant.

If you go to the CMP website, you can find their phone number & ask if they any record of your rifle's SN. DCM was the predecessor to CMP, but I don't know if DCM sales were added to CMP's data base. If they have a record of your rifle, they will send you written verification for $5.

DCM/CMP paperwork actually adds to the value of a rifle, as there are quite a few "restored" & fake A4's out there.

Neal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 728shooter

Hello to all from a relative "Newbie" to this site. Really impressed by all the threads I've been reading. Have a question regarding the scopes used on the 1903-a4's....

Recently acquired a very nice 1903-a4 from a family member of a WWII (or Korean War?) vet. Rifle looks as if it was never issued and has a rather rare "Z" prefix serial number, which according to info I've read, dates it to Jan-Feb '44 manufacture or issue. Rifle came with original staked Redfield scope mount, but no scope or rings. Have acquired correct 3/4" scope rings and am trying to figure out which scope was originally issued with this rifle.

I understand that the Weaver model 330-C, which was a commercial model, was originally selected as the scope for this rifle, and was later assigned the military designation M73B1. I have read that early Weaver scopes for this rifle were marked either model 330-C, M73B1, or even model 330 M-8. However, the models 330-C that I have seen have adjustment knobs that were friction-locked, whereas the military specs required "click-adjustments", which only the model 330-M 8 has. I assume that the M73B1 is the same.

My questions are; Is the model 330 M-8 the correct "early" scope used on the 1903-a4? At what point in time were all Weaver scopes marked M73B1? Given the manufacture dates of the rifle I mention, what was the correct scope for it at that time? And at what point in time did the Lyman Alaskan take over as the standard military issue sniper scope in WWII for the 1903-a4? I have a chance to buy an Weaver 330 M-8 and want to make sure it's correct for this rifle.

Thanks to all for any & all input. --728shooter

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Anyone have ananswer to this queston?

I have similar situation.

Thanks!

yes, go back and read the responses ,

My A4 is one purchased from the DCM. I bought it many years later after it had sat in a closet for decades. It had the scope mount and rings, but no scope.
I purchased the civilian Weaver 330 with the friction adjustments.
I've heard so many things, one way or another, on whether these scopes were issued with this rifle, or not. I'm of the opinion that some were. The stock was horrible, so I put a CMP stock on it.Attachment 127150Attachment 127151Attachment 127152Attachment 127153