Help me Identify - Springfield Trap Door, or Fake?

Hello Milsurp forum!
New member here. Been browsing for a long time, and finally have the opportunity to post and become a part of the family :)

I recently was offered the opportunity to purchase what looks like a Springfield Trap Door rifle, from a local private seller. All I have to go on are the attached photos... and to be honest the rifle seems off to me. The pics are not the best quality, and it will be several days before I can get my hands on the rifle. Several parts of the rifle make me think it's a fake, or replica.

I'm hoping you can help me identify the rifle, and gain some knowledge from your wisdom.

My concerns:
- Front barrel band doesn't seem to have a retention spring
- Trigger guard sling mount looks wrong
- Lock plate is beveled, and sticks-out from receiver
- "Ribbed" trigger
- Poor condition

Otherwise, hard to tell from the pics I have. Thanks is advance for your help!

Pictures:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...716db02c-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2ae181c4-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e96d037a-1.jpg

There's definitely something wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

There's definitely something wrong.

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Hmmm, so perhaps a Muzzle-Loader-Banner-man-Super-Special?

Was gonna offer $100, but I may try to take this away for $20.
Perhaps I can polish it up and make myself a nice wall hanger.

"Was gonna offer $100, but I may try to take this away for $20.
Perhaps I can polish it up and make myself a nice wall hanger. "

Aww, c'mon man! $100 is a wall hanger-price! What are you expecting for that kind of money? Something out of the Frasca-Hill book? For me, as a shooter, if I could see usable rifling I would buy it without quibbling. I have been keeping my eyes open for a Trapdoor for years, but a good-shooting example over here costs 4-figures. Fixing up an imperfect example is my only option.

By now, the Bannermann mix-masters must be so old that they almost count as a special brand of antique in their own right! And you seem to be living in a country where you have a chance of getting proper replacement parts if any bits are unacceptable. Over here, I'd have to start carving my own!

Don't gripe, just get it - there must be more than $100 of parts in there, even if they only came together yesterday. And there are plenty of people on this forum to help you sort out any inconsistencies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

"Was gonna offer $100, but I may try to take this away for $20.
Perhaps I can polish it up and make myself a nice wall hanger. "

Aww, c'mon man! $100 is a wall hanger-price! What are you expecting for that kind of money? Something out of the Frasca-Hill book? For me, as a shooter, if I could see usable rifling I would buy it without quibbling. I have been keeping my eyes open for a Trapdoor for years, but a good-shooting example over here costs 4-figures. Fixing up an imperfect example is my only option.

By now, the Bannermann mix-masters must be so old that they almost count as a special brand of antique in their own right! And you seem to be living in a country where you have a chance of getting proper replacement parts if any bits are unacceptable. Over here, I'd have to start carving my own!

Don't gripe, just get it - there must be more than $100 of parts in there, even if they only came together yesterday. And there are plenty of people on this forum to help you sort out any inconsistencies.

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I hear you man! Not trying to be a cheapster, but I was already told by the seller that he wants $100 "Tops."
The seller is a friend-of-a-friend, and isn't looking for top dollar, nor does he care about what I offer.
I figured I could perhaps get some good parts of out it, but who knows. It may just be a tin POS that someone pieced together, to make it look like a real Springfield.
No matter what, I'll update this thread and keep you all posted.
I'm still crossing my fingers that it's a diamond in the rough, and the pics are so bad that they simply make it look fake :P

I'm kind of with Patrick here, I'd pay $100 for that as is...don't know how useful it would be after but I'd try. But that said, cheaper is better. But, I WOULD be trying to shoot it after.

"...
I'm still crossing my fingers that it's a diamond in the rough, and the pics are so bad that they simply make it look fake ..."

That's precisely my position as well. I doubt that it is a out-and-out fake, more likely a "Bannermann-style" combination of genuine parts from different rifles. And it is perhaps necessary to explain my particular position here in Mauserland. I am an active competition shooter, and Buffington sights are often not permitted for military competitions. So I am looking for one with the 1882 leaf sight - which is what you seem to have found. But around these parts, every Trapdoor seems to have been (retro-?) fitted with a Buffington sight. So the sight alone would be worth $100 to anyone in my situation.

BTW, as you are a new member, you might be interested to look at some of the contributions in the BP and Restoration forums, where you will find some encouraging examples of rough diamonds turned into jewels.

Read, be encouraged, get it, and post some good detailed photos!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I But, I WOULD be trying to shoot it after.

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Oh, hell yes! I've read enough to know that going from purchase to shooting requires much research, and attention to the details.
As it stands, I would consider this rifle being a shooter as my best case scenario.

So, since I got these pics, I've literally been scouring the internet for clues, pictures, articles... anything to help me identify this thing.
Here's what I'm seeing, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Disclaimer - I have no idea what I'm talking about. Springfield Trapdoor rifles are completely new to me, and I'm trying to identify this rifle based on 3 grainy, ****-poor pictures. This is an exercise in having fun, and torturing myself until the minutes tick away, until I can actually see this rifle in person.
DO NOT USE THIS INFORMATION AS REFERENCE. My references for trying to identify parts are Google, and this website: The U.S. Springfield Trapdoor Rifle Information Center

Please forgive my ignorance.

[Speculation]
- Lock Plate from an Allin Conversion and/or earlier model (thick plate, beveled edge)
- Buckhorn Rear Sight
- "Carbine Style" trigger guard (plus, odd sling mount)
- 1873+ hammer
- "50-70 style" (?) Front barrel band (double sling rings)
- Early push rod
- 1884+ Trigger (ribbed)

Again, the above is for entertainment only, not to be confused as fact.

Seems to be mostly a late Model 1873.
Ribbed trigger was introduced as a production change in 1882. Not 1884+
Ramrod style is as from 1879-on. From about serial no. 105000.
Double-ring front band used in 1873 and 1884 models.


So my guess (and this is a guessing game!) is serial no. from 160000-260000, made in 1883-1883, possible early 1884.
The apparently missing spring retainer for the front band and the protruding lockplate could be an indication that the stock is non-original. ?!?!


I really am looking forward to some better photos!

Here's a link to my follow-up post, with lots more detail and photos:

Springfield Trapdoor Bannerman Special - Might be a Shooter