Fixing the Draws on a No4?

Okay, I have no4 I'm trying to restore and the draws are not making contact. I would like to keep the rifle NRA legal for vintage sniper match's so as far as I can tell using epoxy or bedding the rifle is not allowed.

I read Peters article on replacing the draw area with new wood. My problem with it is the dowl pin that is drilled clear through the stock. I don't want to alter the outside appearance any.

So my question is has anyone had any luck with just using epoxy to hold the replacement wood in place? I also might be able to epoxy a small pin, nail or even maybe a screw from the inside at a angle to help hold it in place if needed.

You can drill and install the dowels vertically too. One on each side.

---------- Post added at 01:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 PM ----------

Use oak to make the dowels and patch block. Grain from to back on the patch block and turn the grain opposite on the dowels for strength. You ain't building a boat and no one will see it.

---------- Post added at 01:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ----------

Should read "front to back".

As an aside, you might want to check The importance of the grease
Some of the dialogue addresses the cause and prevention of wear in the draws.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

You can drill and install the dowels vertically too. One on each side.

Should read "front to back".

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Among my collection I have had several with the (rather small diameter) vertical dowels in armourer installed draw repairs and, with a few, the repairs have failed with the patches now loose. When I've repaired these I've chosen to follow Capt. Laidlers advice and used more substantial cross-wise dowels. With appropriate coloured wood or stain these dowels aren't obtrusive- in fact like all well done furniture repairs I think they add something to the rifle. I assume that both approaches were officially accepted repair methods and, hence, acceptable on a restoration where accuracy is desired?

Ridolpho

Another bit of advice RWS. Use aero approved wood adhesive.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe that your rules don't allow for approved repairs! I mean, if that were the case and on that basis, most No4 butts would be outlawed if they were patched and pegged. And what about all the patched reinforces....., not to mention slip patches and............

I'm not familiar with "aero approved wood adhesive" Any suggestions? Most of what I use here is Marine Tex Epoxy.

http://www.marinetex.com/marinetexepoxyputty.html

According to page 46 of the NRA rules it states.

http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMPGamesRules.pdf

Must be in as-issued condition. No fiberglass stocks, special bedding
(glass bedding, etc.), match triggers or other special accurizing are
permitted.

THere you go. As issued. If we fix 'em like that and they go back to Ordnance like that, then they're issued like that!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rwsgunsmithing

According to page 46 of the NRA rules . . .
http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMPGamesRules.pdf

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As we can see by the document title, those are CMP rules, not NRA (which are different in many respects).

Rule 4.2.5 includes language that would seem to cover patched draws -

Shims made of wood, fabric, paper, metal or other similar material, of
types that were originally installed by military arsenals in these rifles and
that are placed between the stock and the action, barrel or trigger
assembly are permitted.

In practice, it's highly unusual that CMP games competitors are asked to remove a forestock for inspection - unless they have placed very high in national-level competition (or somebody snitches).

I would suggest that if it's just the fact that you or anyone don't like the look/appearance of a hardwood strengthening dowel, then just leave it out! After all a properly cut, glued and fitted patch ain't goin' nowhere! It can't go left and right, nor up, nor down nor forward nor back.

I tell you to put a dowel in it because my class teacher told me to in 1964 an' his class teacher probably told him to when he was an apprentice in 1934. But guess what. When you done it like real Armourers have done it, people know that a real Armourer has done it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Parashooter

As we can see by the document title, those are CMP rules, not NRA (which are different in many respects).

Rule 4.2.5 includes language that would seem to cover patched draws -

Shims made of wood, fabric, paper, metal or other similar material, of
types that were originally installed by military arsenals in these rifles and
that are placed between the stock and the action, barrel or trigger
assembly are permitted.

In practice, it's highly unusual that CMP games competitors are asked to remove a forestock for inspection - unless they have placed very high in national-level competition (or somebody snitches).

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My apologizes, I meant to say CMP rules, not NRA.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rwsgunsmithing

I'm not familiar with "aero approved wood adhesive" Any suggestions? Most of what I use here is Marine Tex Epoxy.

http://www.marinetex.com/marinetexepoxyputty.html

According to page 46 of the NRA rules it states.

http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMPGamesRules.pdf

Must be in as-issued condition. No fiberglass stocks, special bedding
(glass bedding, etc.), match triggers or other special accurizing are
permitted.

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What about say OZ armourers using brass of aluminum pads? Not as issued maybe but a field repair. ( I can hear Peter choking on his scotch now.)

I have done 2 sets of repairs myself and I used brass pads with brass screws, but they are range guns and no one cares for club shoots. You could of course make them out of a hard wood and I think some were. The advantage of pads is you can shim them to get the barrel spot on along its groove. Now if you are good and I mean very good at woodworking OK, I tried Peter's wood way and gave up simply shimming them as its a very complex 3d thing..


Looking at the rules it doesnt say anything about using specific glues So I would use Epoxy myself for its durability.

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Originally Posted by ssj

I used brass pads with brass screws,

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SSJ -- I don't believe this is just an amateur's aberration. I just purchased a 1918 Lithgow that was marked "R"above "MA 2/46" (which means, I believe, Returned for Refurbishing). It received an FTR level overhaul with new forend. The draws are reinforced with brass pads and screws just like your picture. There is little question in my mind this was done by a Professional Military Armourer, not just a private gunsmith. (BTW the draws are the tightest I have on any of my 7 Enfields)

My assumption is (please correct me Aussies if I'm wrong) because Australian coachwood is not as hard as walnut, the brass draw pads were apparently installed during the FTR to prevent wear/compression/deterioration that would accelerate as gun oil got into the wood.

To quote from Skennerton and Labudda (S.A.I.S. No. 19): " Walnut insert blocks were used between 1927 and 1934 and from 1934, a double pin stock bolt.............Copper plates secured by screws were then used, discontinued as a wartime economy in December 1942 but then applied again by Slazengers from May of 1943".

Ridolpho

No I dont believe it is an "an amateur's aberration" I also read that alloy/aluminum was used during/late ww2? but this is a southern hemisphere repair. The weird thing I found on one gun was it had copper plates but steel screws and they had taken the battering and not the copper! Fortunately the receiver was a harder steel so didnt suffer. Anyway I replaced with brass screws just in case. Its certainly not that un-common for NZ target guns to have these. My metal draws are also the tightest as it is very easy to add 5thou shim both sides to get it tight.

A shallow wood screw, down the grain, especially a soft grain is pixx poor practice according to my boss in New Zealand where I frst saw this practice. Just try it for yourself on a piece of fore-end, using the same screw. Ask yourself this. Would a cabinet maker do it? We DO do something similar of course, but holding a butt plate on with a butt plate screw is a totally different matter I'm sure you'd agree.

Just my opinion, based on nothing more that simple experience

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssj

alloy/aluminum was used during/late ww2? but this is a southern hemisphere repair. The weird thing I found on one gun was it had copper plates but steel screws

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As sailors and boat restorers are quickly taught, never put aluminum and copper/brass near each other. They create galvanic reaction, just like a battery; an electrolytic reaction will occur, resulting in the destruction of the aluminum. It's accelerated wherever salt is present in the atmosphere. That's why all aluminum for marine applications are special alloys. Brass, copper, and steel are okay as partners.