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Handloads.com has a huge database of law enforcement shooting data where one shot stops were tabulated for different calibers. In 1,080 shootings, the 110 FMJ M1 Carbine (mostly Mil-Surp, but also commercial Federal and Winchester) resulted in 80% one-shot stops (864). The 110 JSP averaged 88% in 106 shootings!
I have said before, it is an underestimated and under appreciated round. The Winchester 55 grain M193 .223/5.56 only averaged 83%!!!!
30 Carbine Stopping Power
"What is the most dangerous caliber to be shot with?" he replied ".22". I asked why and he said "Because that's what most people are shot with."
I guess my point is: if it hits a big pipe, your brain or you heart, you are dead. Anywhere else and it's just luck.
Thanks for the cool website!
Underestimated and under appreciated surely. The way you posted the data shows a high percentile for the Carbine. But in .223 you only mention Winchester. Using any other on that same chart it goes up into the 91%-94%. So it is highly effective as well.
223 Remington Stopping Power
I think there are very few areas in law enforcement today that would use a Carbine over an AR.
Being on the carbine forum we obviously like this weapon. Though I would think the majority here are not law enforcement. Personal protection, home defense, recreation, and maybe hunting. Tabulated data has so many variables. Intended use should be of first concern. Times and equipment have a way of evolving. Does a Carbine or an AR better fit the scenario. Close quarters, distance, size of target. penetration, tumbling. Some aspire to bigger is better.
All that said I have only two AR's, many more Carbines. But for carry and home I use a .45 acp. :dunno:
Jim, you are right. I knew folks would see that the 223 overall was better (they were on the same page, after all), I just pointed out the Winchester Q3131 as an anomaly. Poorly worde.
My little M1 carbine (as much as I love it) is relegated to standby for home defense since I built my 5 pound, 6 ounce California Featureless AR-15 "KISS" carbine. It has a 16" Colt 1/7 twist "6420 "pencil" barrel. I use MK262 Mod 1, 5.56mm with the 77 grain OTM Sierra Match-King bullet. It is devastating and has about 99% 1 shot stops with Special forces types using it in SPRs and 11.5 inch MK12s in Afghanistan. That doesn't mean I appreciate the M1 Carbine any less, it just means the AR15 is a better tool sometimes.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...81547875-1.jpg
The AR has many advantages over the carbine. Not the least being that you can just point, shoot and it will hit out to 200 yds. No windage or elevation required. That and almost no recoil means easy to use. I use to have a built in bias for the AR probably because I qualified expert with the M14 and like wood and the sights. But if I was going into a gunfight today, I'd grab either a 1911 or the AR. I never liked the sights and having to stick your pumpkin up too far to use them, but it is a fine effective weapon. I'd call the carbine a handy, light weapon. If I'm hiking in the woods out in nowhere, the carbine with one 15 rd is my first choice.
Dave, you are right. An M1 with a 15 in the weapon and two 15s in the stock pouch is incredibly handy and light. While my KISS AR carbine would be close weight wise (though still heavier with two 20s), it still would be bulkier and not as easy to carry as the M1 Carbine. My Inland feeds R-P 110 soft points flawlessly, especially from a USGI 15 rounder. After all, I did nail a 200 pound deer with a single heart-lung shot from my Carbine at 97 yards!
If the Zombie Apocalypse was happening (HAHAHA, tongue in cheek!), and I was in a fixed position, my red dot optic Saiga AK using my Sapsan 8M3 "fragtastic" 124 Grain HP ammo would be first choice. At about 9.5 pounds with a loaded steel Com-Bloc 30 round mag and red dot scope and mount, though, it is way too heavy to tote around. The M1 Carbine wins again.
Assuming we are not talking about Zombie Apocalypse, why in a self defense situation are you shooting at someone more than 100 yds. away?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveHH
Ah... Maybe the sneaky Zombies have snipers that need dealt with, or maybe they are going after the livestock in the pasture 200 yards away, to feast on the horses and cattle! LOL. I have always figure 100 yards was my max. Any farther, it is escape and evade!
This is starting to go off topic.
I wonder how that sample of 1033 shootings was selected for "Mil Surplus" ammo. Seems any percent of "one shot stops" you get will be highly dependent upon which 1033 carbine shootings you select, i.e. whether, say, Korea was included, or not
I think I remember it was law enforcement or DOJ stats. Certainly the non milsurp were not Korea but Domestic, and they had the same ratio.
---------- Post added at 06:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:00 PM ----------
Sorry boss, just a small divergence! All back on topic now.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimF4M1s
Marshall and Sanow's "work" was utterly and completely discredited 15 years ago. Voodoo has more of a connection to scientific inquiry. They couldn't even manage to keep the arithmetic straight. Glad they're not designing bridges or analyzing prescription drug trials.
I remember when the article came out in 1988. Sanow attached to it in 1992. Then they collaborated on a book in the mid 90's.Quote:
Originally Posted by firstflabn
I don't want to see this turn into some political banter. Those interested should Goggle the names and read the write ups themselves.
Whatever, a 110 gr .30 caliber roundnose FMJ, soft point or semi-jacketed hollow point (Speer #1835) at 1950 fps is a serious round for a pistol-caliber carbine. 5.56mm NATO has too much penetration potential in my suburban environment to consider firing it inside the house. For those times when a pistol isn't enough and a shotgun may not suffice either, the .30 Carbine is very attractive. Particularly in a sub-gun, its a serious chopper. The Israelis still use a 'bullpup' M1 Carbine sub-gun in some security forces. But even in a semi-auto, .30 carbine is devastating at 100 yds or less, particularly the hollow point. Now an AR15-type in .30 Carbine would be very cool to me. Such a gun was once made by Olympic but didn't sell, so they dropped it. I think a conversion would be possible using a chamber insert in a 7.62X39 barrel. You would use a standard bolt. The magazine would consist of basically a 5.56 mag as the outer shell with a carbine mag inside, shimmed correctly to feed. But I digress; a factory-made one would be preferable, of course.
I no longer have any tactical applications in mind for my one M1 Carbine which is in preservation mode, but an AR or other carbine, even a High Point in .30 Carbine would get my attention as a home defense gun.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...arbmag3a-1.jpg
I was amazed at the damage the single 110 JSP Remington round did with a heart-lung shot to the deer at about 100 yards! The heart was blown apart, and the exit hole would take all five fingers of my hand scrunched together in it, including two ribs that had chunks missing. WOW! The damage was no less than I had experienced before shooting deer with my trusty, sporterized No 4, MKI .303 British.
I had carried it as a LEO trunk weapon before that, but after I had total confidence it would work for me in my application.
If you're hesitant to use the 5.56mm for home defense due to worries about over penetration then you don't want to use the 30 carbine either. With FMJ bullets it will penetrate just as much if not more than a 5.56mm will and as long as it doesn't hit an appliance, breaker box or some such it's gonna go through at least 2 and possibly 3 walls with an expanding bullet.Quote:
Originally Posted by INLAND44
True.... Now that I live in a rural neighborhood (1/2 acre lots) I use an 18" pump riot gun with 3" magnum #1 buckshot. Each shot has (24) .30 caliber pellets! I have a Turkish copy of an Ithaca Model 37 that holds 5+1, with a stock sling with 5 more. When I lived back in Illinois on 5 acres surrounded by farmland 2007 to 2011, I used my M1 Carbine, as I did when I had 20 acres in California up until 2007. In 2006 (in California), I scared off a car load of villains entering my property in the middle of the night with felonious intent with the Carbine!
How did Marshall and Sanow get drawn into this?
Uhhh, maybe because that's the link the OP posted and commented on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill
They were the authors of the data on that page. While I don't take their data as gospel, I also don't go along with the haters... When I was an LEO and rangemaster, we actually saw a fair amount of the raw data in their early stages.The later work was what was questionable. Fact remains, the M1 Carbine is grossly underestimated and unfairly maligned.My dad and his brothers used it to great effect in the Pacific in WW2. They were certainly happy with it! They came back.
Maybe. But I would use the special ammo I designed and had made (pictured above) with lead hollow point semi-jacketed bullet. And no .30 Carbine FMJ is going to penetrate like M855, one of the most popular 5.56 rounds (at least it was until Holder banned it). Anyway, its not going to happen. I have so many different guns for this purpose that they would most likely find my body in front of the open safe trying to figure out which gun is just right for this incident. :) And unless somebody makes a semi-auto carbine in .30 Carbine other than an M1 Carbine copy its a moot point for me because I am definitely not using my Inland for this purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
I would love to get some Hornady Critical Defense. Its busting 2000 fps out of usgi M1 Carbines. The gel tests are impressive. Gold Dot opens up but is slow like Aguilar from what I have heard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by INLAND44
I've contemplated some sort of conversion of the FN PS90 PDW to .30 Carbine. That would be a very practical use of the platform, rather than the 5,7mm round. (Which would be a fine thing in it's original select fire P90 format.) But it is probably beyond a simple parts swap. Probably need a complete re-engineering done. But one can dream.
Something like these?Quote:
Originally Posted by INLAND44
And as far as 855 goes it looses effectiveness as a penetrator in soft materials(wood, ect.) and is no better than any other GP ball round.
I did not notice the information had come from their work. Some of their results are suspect at best and some is accurate. But the poor out weighs the good in some peoples minds.Quote:
Originally Posted by firstflabn
I totally agree that the .30 Carbine round is under-estimated and under-appreciated --- even by those who should be in the know. To wit: The author of an article on the "M1 carbine" in the Military Surplus Rifle magazine I bought insinuates that the M1 carbine round is comparable to the ".38 Special" in power and effectiveness. Whoa! Where did that wisdom come from? I've fired a M1 carbine FMJ round clear through a 26 inch diameter wood power pole using a Ruger.30 carbine revolver. The longer- barreled carbine would have even done better! My .38 Special revolver, on the other hand, will hardly penetrate a 5 inch fence post on a good day. Go figure...
Hahaha! 38 Special and 30 Carbine????? Let's see 38 Special 250 ft lbs ME and 30 Carbine almost 1,000 ft lbs ME. Hmmm.. typical know it all guru regurgitating wrong info.