Accuracy Problems With M1917

I Finally got my hands on a Eddystone M1917 for $500 it in great condition 4 grove HS barrel the rifling seems to be in good condition with maybe very slight pitting (if any) and has been counter-bored. IDK if that really affect the accuracy but my question is i recently took it to the range and was not pleased with the accuracy i got 13 out of 15 shot on target mostly high right at 50 yard.. I was shooting 150gr surplus and some what i think were 150gr soft points that i had on hand..Ive hear that it better to shoot heaver bullet out of it because of the 1 in 10 twist of the barrel...but i really don't know has anyone had a problem like this or know what to do? Any help would be nice..

How did you have the rear sight positioned? The down, battle sight position sights the rifle in at 400 yds +. With the staff up and the slider all the way down you will be closer to 100 yds. I'm not sure how the counter boring will affect the accuracy, but I would check for barrel/stock contact and looseness. Is the stock slightly warped or putting pressure on one side of the barrel? Ideally the barrel should free float except at the upper band where there should be a slight amount of upward pressure on it by the tip of the stock. Are the mounting bolts tight? Is the front sight centered in the base? I would check these things and then head to the range again.
john

I think that one day I should get around to making a properly thought-out decision tree for this, but here goes with a first approximation... Updates and corrections are to be expected!

Precondition: make the usual checks of the rifle for head clearance, damage-free crown, barrel fit in channel, plausibly tightened system screws etc. These have been described several times in these forums.

1) Pick a range, preferably 50 meters/yards for a very first trial, since you have no idea of the relationship between POA and POI and want to be reasonably sure that the shots will be on the paper!

2) Take some standard 30-06 commercial ammo, nothing exotic. On an M1917, put up the backsight leaf and set the slider as low as it will go. Shoot off a sandsack or good rest, and use a 6 o'clock aim. This will put the shots on target in a typical 8" black at 50-100 yards/meters. Shoot five shots.

3) Are all bullets on paper? At this stage, it does not matter where!
YES – go to 4)
NO - the rifle has a defect. Not an "issue". A defect. Go to 6)

4) Are the bullet holes round?
YES – go to 7)
NO - this indicates keyholing or marginal bullet stability. But some bullets take a short distance to stabilize. If the POI is central enough to permit it, increase range to 100 and try again.

5) Are the holes round now?
YES - it was the bullets taking a while to stabilize. Go to 7)
NO - You have a problem. Go to 6)

6) The cause could one or more of
a) Seriously worn throat
HELP: reloads with the thickest flat-base bullets that will chamber, set out as long as they will go.
b) Damaged or bell-mouthed muzzle and/or crown.
HELP: recrown worn/damaged crown. Counter-bore worn muzzle (already doen in this example).
c) Bullet diameter too small for rifling – since you are using commercial 30-06 ammo, the rifling must be seriously worn.
HELP: reloads with the thickest flat-base bullet that will chamber.
d) Bent (i.e. damaged) barrel or barrel being bent by hard bearing on the barrel channel (warped stock)
HELP: Straighten barrel. Ensure correct fit and/or float of barrel in channel. Correct or replace stock.
- All of the above must be fixed or at least mitigated before it makes sense to continue to 7)

7) Do you have what may be called a group at 50?
a) Diameter 3” or more. Not good enough. Return to 6) and check carefully.
b) Less than 3”. Not brilliant, but usable. Go to 8)
c) Less than 2”. What I would expect from an M1917 before optimization. Go to 8)

8) Horizontal POI
Is the group within the black at 50%.
NO: Go to 6) d)
YES: Drift the foresight blade (if required) to correct the horizontal position.
If the correction puts the blade more than 1/16” from the center line, then you may still have a slight problem under 6). Go to 6) and repeat
If the correction requires less than 1/16”, go to 9)

9) Vertical POI
After any necessary correction as under 8), the group should be entirely within the black at 50. But only if you are using the sighting and aim as in 2).
Group is now in the black?
YES – go to 10)
ABOVE – the foresight blade may be too short. Replace with a higher blade. Go to 2)
TIP: Lee Enfield blades fit!
BELOW – I have never experienced this with a military rifle. A bent barrel is a possible explanation.

10) You have a rifle that groups sensibly on target at 50.
Go to 100 and repeat!


Note: The above may seem complex, but if you perform all the steps in sequence and carefully, you will reach 10) much faster than if you just dive in and plink away!


Good luck with your rifle!

I tried it in both the up and down... As far as the stock goes i cant get the barrel and action out.. Its a Remington stock so i don't know if its just a really tight fit or im just doing something wrong...I know you take out the screws and there's one going through the Upper band (where the bayonet stud is) but the stock just seems to be stuck there and can pull it lose. So i really cant inspect the stock and barrel.. When i put the screws back on i do tighten them down pretty well. When i got the rifle the sight was drifted to the left so before i took it shooting i drifted it back to center. After shooting i looked at the target and saw everything was hitting high right.

Here are some pictures i took of the target and of the bore... The target was shot at 50 yard bench resting.. I did fire two shot at this same target at 25 yard to see if that would help at all. I circled 3 holes with a red marker, i believe two of them were the ones shot at 25, as for witch 2 i really dont know. Attachment 61217Attachment 61218Attachment 61219Attachment 61220

I've sure shot barrels that were a lot worse than that one. The bullet holes do look a bit less than perfect to me, as in a bit of yaw.

i appreciate the input would you think a heavier bullet would help?

If it's not stabilizing I would go 150 spitzer... You said you used 150s but what profile. Heavier will be longer and that can cause a yaw. Thing is, you should be able to shoot the original factory weight or there's a problem. Wish I was a bit closer, we'd load a few different things and figure it out. I'd even try 130 spitzers if I could...

I shot surplus 150gr flat base FMJs and 150gr SP which has some deformation on the point. from what i gather originally the barrels were meant for like 180gr and up and shooting lighter bullets would over stabilize. I would like to start reloading 30-06 for this and my garand but i dont want waist money on bullets that don't work well in this rifle or a gun that has a bigger problem.

Yes, the earlier bullets were heavier but that changed. Don't know where this over stabilize thing came from, the wouldn't wobble like that though. Only thing to set your mind at ease would be go the other way and try some, say, 180s or 190s...and see. Unless the bore is more worn than we can tell and they aren't getting traction. Can't tell from here...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andrew1995

..Ive hear that it better to shoot heaver bullet out of it because of the 1 in 10 twist of the barrel...

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1 turn in 10 inched is the standard twist rate for the 30-06 and will stabilize bullets from 110gr to 220gr reliably. The reason many old military rifles shoot heavier bullets better is because they generally have longer throats than commercial sporting rifles. Plus they've had who knows how many 1000's of rounds fired through them over the years and the throats get worn even longer. Lighter bullets generally have shorter bearing surfaces than the heavies of the same design, if the bullet leaves the case neck before it engages the rifling it can sometimes go a bit squirrely and actually travel down the bore slightly crooked causing the bullet veer off course in flight. Clean the bore thoroughly until all traces of fouling are removed and try some 180 or 200gr flat base bullets. If those don't do any better you could have a stuffed barrel.
Counter boring can also cause accuracy issues if it's too deep and/or off center. I normally won't buy a rifle that's been counter bored unless it's an uncommon variant. I've had several Finn Mosin Nagants over the years that were done this way and they just didn't shoot as good as those that weren't.

Ill pick up some 150gr and 180gr and see where that puts me. Thanks for your help guy!

Have you ever slugged the bore to find out it's true size? We could go round and round until you find that out.

No I have not. I was intending to do do so. But I need too get calipers.

The 150 gr. flat base FMJ round is the standard for the M1917. The heavier 172 gr. bullets did not come into use till after WW1 and even then were designed for the machineguns. So it became the standard till the late 1930's when the military went back to the 150 gr. flat base now called the M2 round along with the M1 Garand.

You have a counter-bored rifle. The job of counter-boring has to be done correctly or the rifle is toast. Do you have a gunsmith you trust? Have him check out the muzzle, good luck.

There is a gunsmith around. I haven't really taken much into him. Do you think he would just give it a quick look over, because to me it looks fine though im not a gunsmith?

I just called a gunsmith at Moss Pawn and Gun (where Iraqveteran8888 works if you know who he is). I told him about the crown he didn't seem concerned at all about it. But he said it was the 150gr Greek surplus and that he had people come in with $1000 rifles with $500 scopes and barely be able to his a beach ball a 100 yards. He said to try 2 or 3 different factory loads and see how it does. I still might take the rifle in and see what my local gunsmith says.

If its a worn barrel you can also move up to 303 bullets (.311 diameter as I recall)

Some swear by them, not sure I would do it in a good shooter but I would also run all the options first.

Greek is pretty bad stuff.

Slugging a 5 groove will take a bit more equipment than an even numbered barrel: a V blocks and the right equations. On mine I used a thin shim wrapped around the slug and subtracted the thickness x2 from the diameter for the groove. Getting the bore diameter will be a pain with the counter bore. I was able to use a smooth slug that just rotated in the bore. Some people use pin gauges. Mine was 301x310 by my method. The Hornady 0.3105" fmj work well in mine but are hard to find these days.

Dave

Just use a .31 or .32 cal lead buckshot ball and tap it through. It ain't magic. Yes, you have to pay attention when you measure after...

wow.
iv shot crazy accurate groups with Greek ball...
sounds like its time for a fresh barrel..
FYI: id find another gunsmith..

Attachment 61746

5 shot group..100 yards, sandbags, greek ball ammo...