I Feel Like I'm Going Through Some Sort of Withdrawel

Gun show after gun show, shop after shop and nothing on my list ever making an appearance. I'm going stir crazy. Not that I haven't picked up the occasional non-list item here or there but where are the GEW 98's and P-14's and TS Carcano's?

It's like milsurps are drying up.

Went to the gun auction from hell this morning and nothing but worn out Mexican Mausers, sporterized Arisakas, and various other abused worn out sad looking items even I'm not willing to take on, especially for the prices the idiots were willing to pay. Went to the gun shop afterwards and for the 20th straight week, not one milsurp on the rack. Even Cabelas has run out of Mosin Nagants to look at.

Starting to be very glad I began my search when I did. If I had to get where I am now starting now, I could just forget it.

Seems like they run in waves, noting for a bit and then they appear. I guess they sit in collections and then they get released for whatever reason. Be patient. They'll appear.

Yeah, thinking of going to Oaks tomorrow. Looking for a nice K31 or a Makarov but I NEED bayonets.

Know where you are coming from. Months go by and there seems to be nothing special.Then a collection goes on sale at the LGS or at a auction and you try to find the little gems.Auction prices lately seem to be trending towards the stupid side.

Auction prices are, and have been for a long time, normally on the "Stupid" side! I very rarely go unless there is an item I'm willing to pay extra for.
I haven't bought much for a long time, but occasionally I trip over something I can't live w/o - Like the German mortar at SOS 2 yrs ago. This year was sure a dud, not even many knick-nak items. I don't think I spent $50.
Sarge

My auction from Hell has been on the insanely stupid side for about four years now. I always go, every month, pick out the one or two I want, set my price based on Peterson's and the condition and then watch as they pay another 40% over what I figure it's worth. Watched a guy buy a Dutch carbine from under me for $200 more than it was worth, put it on Gunbroker two days later and it's still there, a year and a half later. The price he is trying to get now is less than what he paid and still no takers. Three weeks after that auction I found a much better all matching one from a guy nearby on Gunbroker and got it for less than I was willing to pay for the one at the auction. Now another auction I went to last year was just the opposite. No one seemed interested in the milsurps and I picked up a Lebel carbine for $150.

I doubt I'll go to Oaks this time around. There should be a guy selling K31's there but they are over $400 and have the nasty receiver billboard import mark. He's been at the last three shows I attended, York, Bloomsburg and Harrisburg. There are a few cheap bayonets to be had but most guys don't seem to want to sell theirs. Today's bargain seems to be WWII Garand bayonets. Lots of guys have them and are selling cheap. You could check with SARCO, they had quite a few K31's when I was up a couple months ago.

Funny you mention SARCO I'm running a route in Easton Monday and planned on dropping by. That's why I'm debating Oaks, but the older boys like going with pop to the show so looks like both for me. Are/where the 31's at SARCO decent? The only drawback buying on the clock is smuggling whatever back past any run ins with D.O.T or State Police and then to my truck at the depot. Done before, will do it again...:madsmile:

I didn't exactly want to look at the K31's when was up but the salesman was talkative and opened the case up so I picked one up to be polite. It looked decent and I don't remember the huge import mark on them. Make sure you look at all the rifles because you never know what you might find. They had a GEW 98 a Dutch Beaumont and a Swiss Vetterli up there that day but all three were in pretty rough shape and missing parts. They had a lot of Mausers of various types all mixed together so you have to look at the tags or the crests.

Looks like I might be going to Oaks today after all. Will be getting there after lunch sometime. I'll be wearing a Desert Storm night camo parka and a black shirt if you run into me there. Probably leave directly from church this morning.

I read this too late, we left about lunch. Maybe next time.

Was a big show!! The mini military vehicle show was neat and getting to sit on this AA gun was awesome. I'm in the middle, flanked by my two eldest. These guns are live too.
Attachment 61472
Attachment 61473

Didn't buy anything but a shirt and some emergency parachute flares. No deals to be had. All in all a good day with the lads.

Good to see you Warpig...

I rolled in a little after 1pm. It was huge. Saw two VZ-24's with lion crests and two P-14's. The VZ's were way overpriced for the condition. One P-14 looked nice but it was because the stock had been sanded to death. The other P-14 I tried to make a deal on but we were just too far apart. Force matched bolt, several stock repairs and he wanted almost top dollar for it "excellent" pricing. I almost pulled the trigger anyway but walked away in the end. Something better will eventually show up. His price was one of the lowest I've seen in a year. No GEW 98 to be found. I saw two KAR 98's including one from "Hitler's" unit according to a special tag. Not looking for one of them right now.

I missed the parachute flares, they are hard to get anymore. Got a box last weekend at Harrisburg which made me happy.

Saw more bayonets than I ever have at a show but didn't need any of them.

I'm thinking I may skip most of the other shows in the future and just go to this one.

Didn't see a single K-31, saw one K-11 and two 1881's.

Saw a few K31s around $450 and if that K11 was like iirc $600 I saw that too. like you say stuff was way over priced or beat up and over priced. Maybe i'll get lucky tomorrow.

It does seem like not much is turning up. Used to be at least "rubble" to pick through. Now, not much of nuttin' except the same way overpriced and underconditioned gunk that's been sitting for ages. US$1000 Long Branch with replacement furniture, etc. Looks OK from 5 feet, but ???

These goodies were NOT made for future collector; they were made as tools of “diplomacy by other means”.

How many Mk5 SMLEs survived being sent to South East Asia , never mind the oned dumped at sea? The Viet Minh used them until they were lost in action or their “fraternal cousins” gave them Nagants or Kalashnikovs: then…..?

How many Moisin Nagants, Mausers, MP-40s, PPSH etc vanished into the meat-grinder on the Eastern Front?

How many of those that “survived” ended their days in Africa, South East Asia etc?

How many mint M-14s and “vintage” M-16s have been consigned to “Captain Crunch” or offloaded to sundry “aid recipients” and just rotted away?

You could just about walk across the Atlantic ocean on “dumped” Lee Enfields, Brens and P-14s.

And never mind the aircraft and vehicles…..

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

These goodies were NOT made for future collector; they were made as tools of “diplomacy by other means”.


How many mint M-14s and “vintage” M-16s have been consigned to “Captain Crunch” or offloaded to sundry “aid recipients” and just rotted away?

You could just about walk across the Atlantic ocean on “dumped” Lee Enfields, Brens and P-14s.

And never mind the aircraft and vehicles…..

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True.
But now I am as depressed as I was the first time I saw the photos GIs dumping Arisakas by the boat load into Tokyo harbor.

I feel your pain, but on the other hand I juzt picked up 4 place-fillers at this weekend's Reno show :
-99 Arisaka, all match including dust cover, 99+% blue, still with grease in the barrel channel, excellent wood. Would rate mint except some minor attempt to deface the mum.
-1941 Carcano, matching, dent-free, no rust, excellent bore
-SMLE, 1918 dated, all matching including magazine (electropenciled), with bayonet and scabbard. VG overall, worn but clean. Relatively rare out here, in fact first one I've seen with WW1 date and English made.
-Another Carcano, short rifle, well worn but good bore, no dents, no rust and matching. Uncommon in 6.5, needed it to complement my Finn.
the last two shows were nada, so sometimes the gods are smiling!

For me the shows in my area have been hit or miss, mostly miss. I have found some decent deals here and there but when I can't find a rifle I want I try to find some other type of item like a sword, ammo belt, bayonet, or even ammo. Here's what i have been able to find:
Late war Japanese type 3 shin gunto bought from the vet who brought it home.
Paid $500 as a guess on value
Greek return Remington 1903 that the bolt was reassembled incorrectly.
Paid $350 after a not so hard negotiation
Uruguayan daudeteau dovitis Mauser in beautiful condition with a mirror bore.
Gave a friend $200 and some duplicates of items from my Japanese collection

I haven't found any good arisakas (most are either sportered or refinished and overpriced) and any kind of german Mauser is seemingly unheard of in my neck of the woods. The closest I can get to are Turkish mausers trying to be sold at german Mauser prices. Enfieds pop up from time to time but most are overpriced (even sportered ones are priced at full military prices). Don't get me started on nambus lol. I swear I think dealers don't do their research on what they have and price them according to what they think they can get out of it.

I quit going to gun shows 3 or 4 years ago, got to be where it just wasn't worth the trip. Still stop in pawn shops once in a while. Rummaged through the pistol vault at my buddy's shop today and came up with this S&W M1917 that I think is a Brazilian Contract M1937. Nothing really special, well used, crest has been ground off and kinda rusty on the outside but the chambers and bore are in good shape. Came with a few rounds of ammo and 8 or 10 half moon clips for $300. Not too bad for a working shooter grade M1917 I don't think.

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Originally Posted by vintage hunter

Came with a few rounds of ammo and 8 or 10 half moon clips for $300. Not too bad for a working shooter grade M1917 I don't think.

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Very nice. My optimism is renewed.

Didn't pick anything up at SARCO today. Nothing jumped out at me but lots to look at but kinda wore out. Still on the hunt,,,but aren't we always.

Sorry SARCO didn't pan out for the K-31 at least.

I have a fellow offering me an 1871/84 Mauser right now for $700. It looks great, almost too great. Haven't seen it in person yet. Not high on my priority list but he figured I might be interested based on my other wants. I have to decide if I can spend that much. I know the instant I do the GEW 98 that I want will become available and they aren't cheap either. It looks complete and matching but the stock bothers me a bit, looks too clean, plus it's smaller than the butt plate indicating sanding. It has what look like strong cartouches. I saw another similar to this one about 4 months ago so it's possible this is the way they came out of being refit. I am tempted. Any opinions?

Seems to be my curse. I created a list, vowed to stick to the list, can't stick to the list and never see anything on the list but keep finding non-list items I'm drawn too. Vowed also to not get into black powder obsolete stuff and then came the French Gras, then the Swiss 1881, then the Dutch Beaumont, now possibly this.

As you Chaps seem to be local PA fellows, I would suggest going to one of the small firehall shows in northeast PA and well as the Forks of the Delaware show in Allentown. Reason is that at the smaller shows and Allentown you will see older collectors sellng off their collections and that is when you can get a decent deal. I find shows up north of Allentown to the the water Gap to be very productive.

Same is true when I have sold stuff of at teh Forks, I generally price it to sell, as I do not want to carry it around with me but sell it at one show. of course I do not set up at shows but once every few years to clear out what I am done with, but I generally sell every arm that day. There are a number of collectors of the ame mind set, so while not every show is great, about every other show I will find a deal at the forks in an area I am interested in. Now you are nto going to get a matching K98K for 500 or any of the areas of high collectablity, but in the items of less interest, like Enfields, spanish arms, etc, you can often get a deal, as the guy selling bought 10 years ago and just wants to move it, cover their table costs without getting raped.

Placed like the Oaks are good to see a lot of stuff, and get bit or surplus deals on magazines or items in common trade, but when it comes to older military surplus rifles , well you are dealling with mostly stocking dealers and they have to cover their overhead and profit. The price of the tables is sufficently high that it excludes most individuals selling one or two arms.

I've had zero luck at Allentown. Been to three or four shows the past couple of years and prices are always at least 25% higher than what I'm used to seeing in the south central part of the state. They do have milsurps but they want an arm and a leg for them. I kind of compare the Allentown show as going to a museum. Lots of nice things to look at but the only thing I come home with are books.

My dad used to call it "champaign taste on a beer budget". Thats me ,do not need or want anything enough to pay list price.But it is still fun to look and stumble on a ok deal now and again.

Well here are the deals I found at Allentown area in the past 18 to 24 months:

1) K98K, Romanian rework. Nice blue, decent bore, pretty much a miss match but overall nice. Action body was scrubbed but you could tell it had been a CZ24 pre 1935 action, so it might have been one of the German reworks from 1942. Had the typical added Romanian sling swivels and marked as such. 250 out the door. Found late on Saturday. Cheaper than an RC with a lot more history.

2) Gew98 nice bore, all matching except the bolt which was Polish. Rifle had been re-blued at some point post WWI, as the action body was blued, bolt bright. Again 250 dollars at a small firehouse show up north of Allentown.

3) Parker hale musketron, 24 inch barrel, excellent bore, set up for competition. Really nice gun, 300 dollars

4) 1937 P marked CZ24 in 54,000 serial range. Very good condition, all matching. Good example of Jap series gun. 250 at small firehouse. I might have gotten that 2 + years ago though I think it was the fall of 2012.

Now to get these I knew the value and when I picked them up I did not put them down again. In all cases I was not early to the show, all were mid-morning to early afternoon deals, except for the K98K which was late afternoon.

Mea culpa.


Went to one of the small shows this weekend, just to see what might be cheap. I was rudely shocked. This was a show I did very well at as recently as a about 18 months ago. Everything from Enfield to mauser were priced high and there was not a deal to be had.

I retract my previous comment, I had no idea things had changed so much so quickly. Glad I am not in the market for anything.

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

I had no idea things had changed so much so quickly.

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Kinda felt like a visit to the proctologist didn't it?....:ugh:

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

Kinda felt like a visit to the proctologist didn't it?....:ugh:

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Only if a purchase was made.

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Originally Posted by bob4wd

I feel your pain, but on the other hand I juzt picked up 4 place-fillers at this weekend's Reno show :
-99 Arisaka, all match including dust cover, 99+% blue, still with grease in the barrel channel, excellent wood. Would rate mint except some minor attempt to deface the mum.
-1941 Carcano, matching, dent-free, no rust, excellent bore
-SMLE, 1918 dated, all matching including magazine (electropenciled), with bayonet and scabbard. VG overall, worn but clean. Relatively rare out here, in fact first one I've seen with WW1 date and English made.
-Another Carcano, short rifle, well worn but good bore, no dents, no rust and matching. Uncommon in 6.5, needed it to complement my Finn.
the last two shows were nada, so sometimes the gods are smiling!

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Electro penciled magazine on a 1918 SMLE is not "all matching" - it's a bubba job.
6.5mm Carcano's are the most common variety around,..... 7.35mm on the other IS uncommon
Sorry to spoil your party mate.

Well, I did not feel ill-used as there is really nothing I am looking for; my collection is pretty much complete.

That said, I could not believe what stuff was put out for price wise; or how new collectors can get in the game. There was a sanded 1942 Malby in decent shape for 500. Had a post war MK I rear sight, clean but not mint as it had been sanded. The kind of gun that would have been priced 150 or 160 (at most) a decade ago. 500 was the asking price, and it sold, though I do not know what the final figure was. The prices are such that I do not see how the young chaps can put together a nice collection for a reasonable sum of WWI or WWII rifles.

I recall when I first got interested in getting some rifles in 1981. I was initially interested in civil war muskets, but a rough example was 250. So instead I focused on the cheap guns I could buy for 65 dollars and less, which was an awful lot in the period from 1982 to 1985, especially in the WWI era guns. In any case here I am 34 years later and I still do not have a 1861 contract musket or a 1860 Colt revolver, both arms I really wanted as a 17 year old.

Now I notice going to the shows that the prices of civil war arms have dropped over the past 5 years, the old guys sell off their collections accumulated in the 1950s through the 1980s. It seems there are less collectors coming at the price point today than are getting out. I wonder if that will occur sometime in the old milsurps, after all I see very few collectors who are not grey haired.

Milsurps seemed to buck the trend when the gun craziness went on a few years ago. Everyone wanted AK's or black guns. Since that craze ended, milsurps in the past year alone have gone through the roof. I have picked up a few good deals recently, mostly pretty beat stuff. The good stuff is now out of my range and a lot of the things I picked up over the past few years I am now glad to have. Best recent deal was an Argentine Mauser for $170. Looked pretty bad but cleaned up very nice. Missing the cleaning rod but everything else matched. Butt plate was solid rust but even that cleaned up a lot better than I thought it would. Just took some time and elbow grease. I got that one at Harrisburg after seeing it three weeks earlier at York. Couldn't believe it sat there through two or three shows. Next lowest Mauser price I saw was $300

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

Well, I did not feel ill-used as there is really nothing I am looking for; my collection is pretty much complete.

That said, I could not believe what stuff was put out for price wise; or how new collectors can get in the game. There was a sanded 1942 Malby in decent shape for 500. Had a post war MK I rear sight, clean but not mint as it had been sanded. The kind of gun that would have been priced 150 or 160 (at most) a decade ago. 500 was the asking price, and it sold, though I do not know what the final figure was. The prices are such that I do not see how the young chaps can put together a nice collection for a reasonable sum of WWI or WWII rifles.

I recall when I first got interested in getting some rifles in 1981. I was initially interested in civil war muskets, but a rough example was 250. So instead I focused on the cheap guns I could buy for 65 dollars and less, which was an awful lot in the period from 1982 to 1985, especially in the WWI era guns. In any case here I am 34 years later and I still do not have a 1861 contract musket or a 1860 Colt revolver, both arms I really wanted as a 17 year old.

Now I notice going to the shows that the prices of civil war arms have dropped over the past 5 years, the old guys sell off their collections accumulated in the 1950s through the 1980s. It seems there are less collectors coming at the price point today than are getting out. I wonder if that will occur sometime in the old milsurps, after all I see very few collectors who are not grey haired.

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I think part of the reason Civil War items are going down in price is primarily because there is so much faked stuff out there, you really have to know your stuff before you go out buying which in turn makes it difficult for new people to get into collecting it. There also isn't nearly as much exposure to it as there used to be (how many civil war movies have come out in the last 10 years compared to WWII movies?).

As a young guy (in my 20s) I do manage to acquire a fair bit of Milsurps but I also am not looking for M1 Garands or 1903 Springfields, rather I am looking for the less expensive but still interesting firearms (recently I acquired some M95s, I also acquired a 1907/15 Berthier-Lebel, both not items most people go looking for right off the bat). I am trying to put together a WWI collection, and so far the only major countries I am missing a example from are the Ottomans/Turkey (which I will wait on as it is difficult to find one in the original 7.65), Germany (hard to find a Gewehr 98, even harder to find one which is in my price range), and Imperial Russia (waiting for the right Imperial M91 to show up).

The thing I have noticed with many guys my age is they want stuff like a M1 Garand, or a Lee Enfield, or a Ross (both the Lee Enfield and the Ross mainly because I am in Canada) but aren't interested in the majority of milsurps. They are just seeking the main competitors of WWII for the most part, and the main reason I feel they are doing this is because of all the movies and tv series out there on WWII at the moment (look at how the prices of Arisakas have gone up since the Pacific came out).

I feel milsurps will hold there own for a while yet, though I wouldn't mind if the price came down (I don't really do much selling so I wouldn't really feel the effects).

Turk 7.65's are almost non-existent. I went with a GEW 88 for Turkey. I don't have a GEW 98 either. Had a line on one two weeks ago but the guy was acting extremely weird and then acted like I wasn't interested so he claims he sold it to someone else. I suspect he's not being truthful but what are you going to do. He just decided for some reason he didn't want to deal with me. Live 15 minutes apart. Wanted me to commit to a $500 purchase without sending me photos or allowing me to examine the rifle first. Acted like I was going to offer him $100 for it. I would have paid the $500 if it was as he described it but not without seeing it first.

On a positive note, I snagged a VZ24 with a lion crest tonight. Different guy, described it perfectly, sent me photos, answered a few questions honestly and we made the deal. I accepted his price without question. It's well used but all there, stock is pretty decent but the metal is nearly without finish so it was not rearsenaled after the war. I love the way it looks. Guys have been asking $400 at the shows for ones with beat to crap stocks and rust, this wasn't anywhere near that.