The Carbine as SBR

I know not everyone will like this subject, but I have always been enamored of the .30 carbine as an SBR when first spotting a cut down version in some vintage photos from the Viet Nam conflict. And of course, the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA) used some cut downs in their reign of terror in the mid 70s. Funny how this coincides with the Viet Nam conflict.

The cartridge seems about right for a shorter barrel, as it really isn't a full powered rifle round anyway. I suspect an 11.5" barrel would give almost as good of efficiency as the 18"barrel. That and the fact the gun looks sexy in a short skirt so to speak.

I will post pictures of my SBR once complete, but in the meantime, here are a few pics gleaned from the Internet. Anybody else think this is a sexy SBR?

Btw, as a point of interest, this carbine in the SLA collection might have been one held by Patty Hurst and her two travel companions or one of two women who fled from beneath the burning house they had been hiding, as you can see the stock is intact, unlike all the other weapons in the picture that surely had been in the house, as it burned to the ground in the final conflict.

At one point in time I built an Enforcer using a stock I purchased from Numrich and a gun I had on hand. I'd always wanted one. I no more than finished it and took it to visit a friend of mine and he bought it...payed way more than he should have. What was I to do? I HAD to take his money...short lived Enforcer. I wanted one for 20 years and only owned it for 20 minutes.

Maybe not like a 6" Auto Mag, but there is still quite the barrel flash at 11.5".

That brings back memories. I remember watching that live on TV the shoot out the SLA had with the Police. I think it looks sweet. I just missed out on a nice Enforcer Stock on a bidding site last month or a little longer..i have something that would of been nice for it.

Frank
S F

I think I'd pass unless I was going to run a can on it. The muzzle blast of a .30 carbine out of 10" Contender barrel is something I'll never repeat willingly.

Rob

Yes, it's a bit noisy and a can would tame it down, but it sure would be fun if you had an M2 kit assembled on an Enforcer stock...

The muzzle blast from my 6 1/2 inch Ruger Blackhawk in .30 carbine is something to see at twilight! ;-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mizzouboy

The muzzle blast from my 6 1/2 inch Ruger Blackhawk in .30 carbine is something to see at twilight! ;-)

---

Just cruios my reloading manual lists different loads and powders for pistol use than carbine. Do you shoot reloads? If so what loads do you use.

OK gents, been away for a while and actually found my own post with a renewed interest. lol.

I have my SBR carbine now and have enjoyed it immensely! YES, IT IS LOUD! I get people stepping back from their lanes any time I shoot it indoors. It thumps like a .44 Mag! And the muzzle flash lights up about 20 feet of my shooting lane! I wish I would have had the foresight to have left enough barrel in front of the front sight to thread for some form of flash suppressor. That will happen on the next build.

But it makes it sound just that more powerful!! I guess this is akin to those guys like to SBR a .308 rifle!? I never understood that process from a ballistics standpoint, but I get it now from a Show and Go aspect. Still not my thing. I think a .300 Black out or 7.62 x 39 would be the most potent cartridge I would ever SBR. Just talking .30 cal for now.

I built mine from a commercial copy ( Iver Johnson) that I have owned for a while and checked to be sure was functioning properly before applying for cutting it down. It functioned fine as an 18" rifle, but after the cut down, with NO adjustment to gas port, it was experiencing some failure to eject. I traced this to this simplest denominator. New extractor and spring. That fixed it! So a carbine cut to 10" is fine with existing gas port opening. Like the XM177E1 and other short barrel AR-15s, it needs a fresh, strong extractor and spring due to possibly faster bolt velocities?? Fortunately, the M1 carbine does not seem too finicky. It continues to give me reliable service. I would NEVER consider doing this to a G.I. carbine, almost no matter how beat up that rifle would be. There are enough working commercial copies and that seems like the appropriate donor to use. IF you get a commercial and it is giving some functioning issues, buy a fresh new operating spring from Wolff and you will more than likely be good to go. Same for the ejector spring and extractor spring. Even these commercial copies are now 40-50 years old and the original springs were possibly later commercial versions without the benefit of meeting USGI Mil Spec requirements?

With the rifle in an M1A1 folding stock, I love how compact it is for transportation and toten around. I wrap my sling around the steel folding arm to make it more comfortable against my cheek, but the sling is always with me in case I need it for utilitarian reasons.

The accuracy is really not bad and I get 6" groups at 100 yards with 110 fmj surplus style fodder. I need to try some of the Hornandy Critical defense ammo.

In the meantime, I do see that the NEW Inland company is revamping the old Enforcer concept which I now believe was inspired by guys coming out of Viet Nam who had used or at least seen these cut down carbines that SF and helicopter pilots used in small quantities. I have a few pics gleaned from the Internet that I will include with this post.

I think my next project will be to buy a new Fulton Armoury M1 carbine receiver and build my pistol version of the cut down Viet Nam carbine. I am pretty sure I can build one for much less than the $1100 retail I hear Inland is going to charge. Interestingly, I found what looks like a promo picture from Inland with their Advisor mounted in an M1A1 stock just like I was inspired to do. I have included a picture (also sourced from the Internet) that shows a nicer cut down in a folder. It has a front sight too. I will certainly build my pistol with the front sight, even though most pics show a cut down from Viet Nam with no front sight.

I am undecided whether to do this tribute with a threaded muzzle or without? A FH is a nice addition, but for authenticity, going without one would be closer to the pictures I have seen.

Input and stories are welcome. Thanks!

I built an M1 Enforcer some 25 years ago and after waiting for 20 years to have one only owned it for hours. I took it to show a friend that promptly paid way too much for it...and I could never replace it. What a neat little gun too. Don't know what happened to it after...

I saw an SBR M2 in the hands of Ron Norton on Gunblast. It was interesting, but I fail to see the value in it for anything but tactical (not tacticool) applications. The "Advisor" M2 Carbines were a welcome addition to the arsenal of the "tunnel rats" back in 'Nam. Inside of the house, it would be deafening, and would needlessly mitigate the power of the .30 Carbine. I can't see any "pluses" in civilian applications for the .30 Carbine SBR. While it may be fun, it doesn't make it any more effective.

Give me a "full-length" .30 Carbine with a folding stock any time.

Thank you!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmEngRifles

OK gents, been away for a while and actually found my own post with a renewed interest. lol.

I have my SBR carbine now and have enjoyed it immensely! YES, IT IS LOUD! I get people stepping back from their lanes any time I shoot it indoors. It thumps like a .44 Mag! And the muzzle flash lights up about 20 feet of my shooting lane! I wish I would have had the foresight to have left enough barrel in front of the front sight to thread for some form of flash suppressor. That will happen on the next build.

But it makes it sound just that more powerful!! I guess this is akin to those guys like to SBR a .308 rifle!? I never understood that process from a ballistics standpoint, but I get it now from a Show and Go aspect. Still not my thing. I think a .300 Black out or 7.62 x 39 would be the most potent cartridge I would ever SBR. Just talking .30 cal for now.

I built mine from a commercial copy ( Iver Johnson) that I have owned for a while and checked to be sure was functioning properly before applying for cutting it down. It functioned fine as an 18" rifle, but after the cut down, with NO adjustment to gas port, it was experiencing some failure to eject. I traced this to this simplest denominator. New extractor and spring. That fixed it! So a carbine cut to 10" is fine with existing gas port opening. Like the XM177E1 and other short barrel AR-15s, it needs a fresh, strong extractor and spring due to possibly faster bolt velocities?? Fortunately, the M1 carbine does not seem too finicky. It continues to give me reliable service. I would NEVER consider doing this to a G.I. carbine, almost no matter how beat up that rifle would be. There are enough working commercial copies and that seems like the appropriate donor to use. IF you get a commercial and it is giving some functioning issues, buy a fresh new operating spring from Wolff and you will more than likely be good to go. Same for the ejector spring and extractor spring. Even these commercial copies are now 40-50 years old and the original springs were possibly later commercial versions without the benefit of meeting USGI Mil Spec requirements?

With the rifle in an M1A1 folding stock, I love how compact it is for transportation and toten around. I wrap my sling around the steel folding arm to make it more comfortable against my cheek, but the sling is always with me in case I need it for utilitarian reasons.

The accuracy is really not bad and I get 6" groups at 100 yards with 110 fmj surplus style fodder. I need to try some of the Hornandy Critical defense ammo.

In the meantime, I do see that the NEW Inland company is revamping the old Enforcer concept which I now believe was inspired by guys coming out of Viet Nam who had used or at least seen these cut down carbines that SF and helicopter pilots used in small quantities. I have a few pics gleaned from the Internet that I will include with this post.

I think my next project will be to buy a new Fulton Armoury M1 carbine receiver and build my pistol version of the cut down Viet Nam carbine. I am pretty sure I can build one for much less than the $1100 retail I hear Inland is going to charge. Interestingly, I found what looks like a promo picture from Inland with their Advisor mounted in an M1A1 stock just like I was inspired to do. I have included a picture (also sourced from the Internet) that shows a nicer cut down in a folder. It has a front sight too. I will certainly build my pistol with the front sight, even though most pics show a cut down from Viet Nam with no front sight.

I am undecided whether to do this tribute with a threaded muzzle or without? A FH is a nice addition, but for authenticity, going without one would be closer to the pictures I have seen.

Input and stories are welcome. Thanks!

---

Anyone recognize the guy in the middle photo? That would be the Lt. "Stormin" Norman Schwartzkopf

It seems that those short-barreled rifles burn propellants inefficiently. People call this a "pistol cartridge" when it is obviously generates higher pressures than the .357 S&W Magnum (38,500 psi as opposed to 35,000 psi). The only handgun cartridge that exceeds the .30 Carbine is the 9 X 25 Winchester, and there's not much call for that cartridge in a "light rifle" is there?

So let's quit fooling ourselves by calling the .30 Carbine a pistol cartridge when it's genesis was from the .32 Winchester Self Loading Rifle Cartridge. The .30 Carbine always has been a rifle cartridge and will never be sufficiently efficient in shorter barrels. It is hard enough to gain performance from the Ruger's revolver barrel. (I shot a friend's Ruger in .30 Carbine and it was extremely loud and not efficient at all).

While it worked inside the tunnels for "short range shock effect" it wasn't much above ground.

Its time to face reality.

Had one along on my usual convoy down to Cam Rahn. It belonged to one of our chopper pilots and was a full auto capable weapon. I stopped on Hwy 1 about a mile or so before the rubber plantation and we all shot it. It might be a good weapon if you were locked in a car with someone. On full auto it was ridiculous. No cigar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Captain O

So let's quit fooling ourselves by calling the .30 Carbine a pistol cartridge when it's genesis was from the .32 Winchester Self Loading Rifle Cartridge. The .30 Carbine always has been a rifle cartridge and will never be sufficiently efficient in shorter barrels. It is hard enough to gain performance from the Ruger's revolver barrel. (I shot a friend's Ruger in .30 Carbine and it was extremely loud and not efficient at all).

Its time to face reality.

---

I have to disagree with part of this. I have a Ruger and the AMT automg in .30 carbine. My Ruger, though it is louder then a rifle and does have a huge flash, has been accurate. and reliable. The AMT is a bugger to get back on target, not as easy to shoot.

Loud is relative, the reason we wear hearing protection, the Ruger is nothing compared to others, try a S&W .460 or .500 if you want loud. These are loud. :yikes:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8eee89ef-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2edac4b3-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...aa696820-1.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaveHH

It might be a good weapon if you were locked in a car with someone.

---

That's a good one...!:rofl: Never heard that one before!

I was going to build one , but just never got around to it . I went instead with an AR with a 9-inch bbl in 300 Blackout as well as an ACC 762-SDN-6 QD suppressor . Add QD mounts for a choice of a Fastfire III red dot , a Leupold VX-R Patrol 1.25-4 X 20 firedot scope and an Armasight CO-MR Gen III night vision device ( works with red dot or scope ) , and you have one compact and versatile package . Now , if ATF would just hurry up on the stamps !
Oh , BTW , the new challenge is to put 5 shots on a 3X5 card at 200 yds shooting subsonics out of your 300 BO .
Chris

Fun is fun, but I can't see the advantage in them. These "variations" are expensive play-pretty things that seem of little use in any practical sense. Not worth the $200.00 NFA (No Fun at All) tax for an SBR in .30 Carbine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Captain O

Fun is fun, but I can't see the advantage in them. These "variations" are expensive play-pretty things that seem of little use in any practical sense. Not worth the $200.00 NFA (No Fun at All) tax for an SBR in .30 Carbine

---

FUN IS FUN in many ways to many different people! TSMG's [FA/SA] and other MG's are fun to shoot. Are they worth the $200 tax stamp? Yes, if that is what you want and can afford it.

I must admit, I did love to shoot the 1928 T Gun...and did so whenever I had the chance.

One of my favorites!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Capt O, I respect your opinion and defend your right to have them. But for me, the idea of taking a .30 caliber carbine round within 100 yards from a 10" barrel or an 18" is "same same" for me. Yes, the round was designed for rifles. My next quest is to see if I can turn it into a true "pistol" caliber with judicious choice of a pistol powder. This will at least reduce the muzzle flash.

Plus, this is America! Who said we shouldn't have fun with our guns? Hell, I like things that go BOOM and this little shooter definitely goes BOOM inside of a closed structure! I love the feel of shocks waves in the morning! Of course, only on the exterior portion of my body, nothing internally. :-) I do not think I would ask your opinion of the 7.62x51 SBR HK clones that so many seem to love. I don't get it, but I hold no grudge for the man that wants that sort of affair. All flash and bang! Sure the ballistics are dismal, but somebody is having fun. And again, I ain't calling that little monster ineffective if I am standing within 100 yards of it. It would surely kill me deader than anything else.

Would the .300 Blackout be a more efficient cartridge in the format? Sure, from what I understand about it's ballistics. But for me, also this is about generating some historical references. Like my XM177E1. Yep, the 5.56 was designed for that 18-20" barrel, but same observation, I don't want one passing through me if I am within 100 yards of the dispenser.

For me, these items just have an appeal from a historical sense. They may be crap guns to you, but for me, there are ephemeral notes from my youth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmEngRifles

Capt O, I respect your opinion and defend your right to have them. But for me, the idea of taking a .30 caliber carbine round within 100 yards from a 10" barrel or an 18" is "same same" for me. Yes, the round was designed for rifles. My next quest is to see if I can turn it into a true "pistol" caliber with judicious choice of a pistol powder. This will at least reduce the muzzle flash.

Plus, this is America! Who said we shouldn't have fun with our guns? Hell, I like things that go BOOM and this little shooter definitely goes BOOM inside of a closed structure! I love the feel of shocks waves in the morning! Of course, only on the exterior portion of my body, nothing internally. :-) I do not think I would ask your opinion of the 7.62x51 SBR HK clones that so many seem to love. I don't get it, but I hold no grudge for the man that wants that sort of affair. All flash and bang! Sure the ballistics are dismal, but somebody is having fun. And again, I ain't calling that little monster ineffective if I am standing within 100 yards of it. It would surely kill me deader than anything else.

Would the .300 Blackout be a more efficient cartridge in the format? Sure, from what I understand about it's ballistics. But for me, also this is about generating some historical references. Like my XM177E1. Yep, the 5.56 was designed for that 18-20" barrel, but same observation, I don't want one passing through me if I am within 100 yards of the dispenser.

For me, these items just have an appeal from a historical sense. They may be crap guns to you, but for me, there are ephemeral notes from my youth.

---

No offense taken nor intended. Attempting to make the .30 Carbine perform as if it's a self-loading pistol cartridge has been attempted in short barreled versions of the M1 Carbine. Sadly, none have been successful. Why? The cartridge requires a certain barrel length to perform within certain power parameters. The faster propellants don't seem to work well within the constraints of the Carbine's action.

I am not trying to "rain on your parade" but I don't want you to embark on a quixotic quest. I have "been there" and have "done that". I just don't want you to embark on a "fools errand".

---------- Post added at 09:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 PM ----------

Try 13 grains of IMR 4227 with a 115 grain bullet. Another shooter had used this to cycle the action. I never did get any velocities from this gentleman, but he said that it worked the action of his Iver Johnson Enforcer.

This is all that I know.

Something similar to this configuration of suppressed and then shortened barrel would be interesting.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...m2Fimage-1.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tenOC

Something similar to this configuration

---

That would be lots of fun, actually.

Yes, in .300 AAC vis a vis .300 Black out.

---------- Post added at 10:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 PM ----------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Captain O

No offense taken nor intended. Attempting to make the .30 Carbine perform as if it's a self-loading pistol cartridge has been attempted in short barreled versions of the M1 Carbine. Sadly, none have been successful. Why? The cartridge requires a certain barrel length to perform within certain power parameters. The faster propellants don't seem to work well within the constraints of the Carbine's action.

I am not trying to "rain on your parade" but I don't want you to embark on a quixotic quest. I have "been there" and have "done that". I just don't want you to embark on a "fools errand".

---------- Post added at 09:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 PM ----------

Try 13 grains of IMR 4227 with a 115 grain bullet. Another shooter had used this to cycle the action. I never did get any velocities from this gentleman, but he said that it worked the action of his Iver Johnson Enforcer.

This is all that I know.

---

Thank you for this. I will definitely look at starting there. Need to get my bench back up and running. It was packed up for a move!

If a .22 can kill you (and it definitely can) a 30 carbine can REALLY kill you. People who have been to war never doubt that anything can kill you. A bullet pokes a hole in you, if it is in the head,throat or heart, you are dead, anything else you bleed. If the bleeding is bad and can't be stopped you're dead. It's simple and brutal. A 30 carbine with 5 gr of Bullseye can poke a hole in you.

Sorry, people. I'm not sacrificing power for "flash and bang". I'm trying to maximize my Carbine's efficiency, not minimize it. I want a 5.4 pound close quarter fighting implement, with as much effective power that I can safely wring from it (without battering the action to pieces, of course). Had I been a "tunnel rat" or someone confined spaces, such as a vehicle or helicopter, it would be an entirely different matter.

I want the ability to inflict as much damage against an aggressor as I possibly can. The .30 Carbine is an excellent "house gun" and is a prime candidate for suppressing neighborhood fighting or household intruders. With 5 30-round magazines, it shoud serve well in just such an emergency.

I really don't see the need for an SBR. $200.00 and a 9-12 month wait seem a steep price for a tool of such limited applications.

Is there a practical point to such an exercise?

It is my opinion that folks want the short barrel version for a "FUN" gun .:thup:
I have a SA TSMG for a "FUN" gun. For home defense it is to big and clumsy, but everyone likes to shoot it. :clap:
Some like the M2 version for a "FUN" gun, I have shot them also and they are fun, but FA in a house or yard is nuts. :yikes:
If you are 'thinking about shooting people [self defense] Most people have 'their' preferred weapon. Use what 'you' are comfortable with. :surrender:

Well, if I remember correctly after several years ago when I checked, a folded M1A1 with standard 18" barrel is shorter than an AR with a 12" barrel. And the Carbine can be shortened another 1-3/4" legally.

Cuidado: You had best measure your barrel before cutting. Many of the carbine barrels are 17.75". Shortening the barrel a tad too much could draw too much attention from the ladies and gentlemen at the Federal Alphabet society, (BATFE, FBI et. al.).

Don't those interested parties measure by inserting a dowel into the bore to the bolt face? I've had two barrels come to me shortened to 16-1/4" and 16-1/8" outwardly measured, but when inserting a dowel and measuring it to the bolt face they were longer.

I have seen those dowels, but i wouldn't trust them. Perhaps they're okay.

..because now we're speaking about legality, exposure and interpretation by humans by these parties and all humans/individuals have failings? At local shows those operatives are typically on site and I've seen attempts to lure people into discussing illegal activity, or even engage in it by trying to buy an item moments after it was purchased by a private party, which is supposedly not allowed.