Kicking the Black Dog.

It looks like my old Regimental Association has found a new role for me.
Attended the Funeral of one of the ex CO's, and found myself baby sitting a young lad recently returned from over there.
He was in a bit of a bad way, Alchohol certainly wasn't helping.......gave him the same talk that my old boss gave to me when they carted me home and put me back together again.
Trouble is they seem to overlook the mind, they can fix the body and forget about the rest.

Having been there myself, booze, bad behaviour and broken relationships.........took 40+ years to get my head straight..........still have bad nights and all my mates have chopped themselves, they reckon I was fairly placed to give this lad the chat.
I can't live his life, but I did impart what I could about mine.......hope it helps(bloody black dog, should kill it) and I will follow up, got him interested in some of the activeties we used to use to dull the brain..........time will tell.

But there are so many of the new breed coming home, having seen and done things that young ones that age should not be exposed to, suicide is at an all time high in the services.....stupid politicians keep sending them and just throw them on the scrap heap when they are brought home.
We need to send the pollies first....if they survive, maybe we might follow.

I think allot more has to be done to understand the mental trauma from being deployed to an area where you do not know who the enemy is. My B/In law cannot stand the news helicopter when he hears it as it brings back memories of his Asian holiday.
Politicians are the artful dodgers look how they duck and weave from pertinent questions also in question time at parliament its like a chook pen when the slops are turfed in, so much wing flapping and squawking........:confused:

I watched a program on shell shock and how little it was understood in WWI and will tell you some of what was contained in the program;
A) One of them could not get up off the ground he was like a spastic fish flopping around on the concrete
B) Another kept opening & shutting his mouth with bulging eyes Why! because he bayoneted a German soldier through the mouth
C) Another chap when shown an officers Kepi the soldier went into hysterics of fear
D) When bomb was shouted another dove under the bed and shook in absolute fear
E) Finally another who could not walk as it looked like he was stepping on hot coals so supported by the Drs with electrical leads stuck to his lower back delivering shocks he staggers down the ward.
His capacity to even walk was nil later on in the documentary he staggers into view in uniform with a walking stick just able to walk but he is twitching and shaking all over.

In WWI one bombardment our chaps were in they were coping 1,000 Arty shells/hr what a horrendous nightmare that would have been.
We move years forward to when General Patton slapped that soldier who was suffering from shell shock, all those years later and it still went pretty much untreated.
And now we have conflicts which come into the camps themselves with rogue soldiers shooting those that protected them, how do you cope with that strain 24/7
It is totally different set of rules now but the politicians have to ensure the vets get the help they need and keep them together and not in the to hard basket.
And as a side note they need to help our farmers as well because allot of those poor buggers are stepping out of life as well. And if you do not have primary industry then that's about it as you will not be eating or clothed, right back to hunter gatherer days.

(In reference to Patton I used it just as an example and not belittling the General)

After I took my release in '08, the office for operational stress injuries wanted me to become a counselor for the returning injured. Although like Muffet says, the old hand chatting with the new man can help because you can give them first hand comfort...I don't think I could do it all my life and every day. I think it would wear on me. Also, living in the past is the greatest part of what keeps one in that mess. We don't seem to be helping our veterans much here either. But I'll say this for sure, because I've been around long enough to watch it...there's WAY more done now than there used to be. If we hadn't started with Yugo in the '90s and all that came after our vets would still be ignored. For us, that was the big change. I was the first one to go through the hoops because I'd released regular force and re-upped reserve to get the benefits. They didn't even know what to do with me so that took some doing. At least it paved the way for those that followed me. The problem is they have to stay the course to get help, many won't and don't have the patience. All part of the symptoms...no patience, anger, inability to deal with stress, crowds...self medicating with drugs and alcohol...

Interestingly enough a friend of mine, a U.S. Navy doctor, told me that they had discovered that Patton's prescription was basically right. These days if a guy shows up at the field hospital saying he's unable to take it they give him a warm meal, a clean bunk for the night, and send him back to the line. Why? According to my doctor friend, because a man who can't take it, fails, and is sent home is often permanently broken by the experience and can't live with himself for the rest of his life. Now, when they get back they go into PTS counseling.

Bob

That's a brave opinion to put up Bob.......... We're in the midle of a political election here and several weeks ago a VERY eminent medical Psychologist/Psychiatrist put forwards in a newspaper article a notion to this effect, adding that the statistics seem to show that combat or other PTSD stress seems to be to blame only after things have actually GONE wrong in the persons life whereas in the real psychological world of his profession, sufferers/families etc seek help BEFORE things go wrong or certainly reach crisis point. It's as if some of the supposed stress is cited/quoted by the defenders of the accused person as an excuse for criminal wrongdoing. The expert was shouted down........, by the charities supporting the stressed!

Much more to it than that of course including pertinent questions and the like

Our newspaper bin has gone now but will see if it's still on-line. But thought provoking..........

Well I wouldn't go as far as to say that those who experience PTS do so because they have failed before they experience stress. My friend, a psychologist, simply noted the cause and effect thing: if a soldier is unable to fulfill his duty and is sent home, he usually becomes a humpty-dumpty: all the kings soldiers and all the kings men (psychologists) can't put him back together again and he never regains his self-esteem. However, according to my friend, if they hold his nose to the grindstone and make him face it, his chances of emerging with his self-esteem intact are overwhelmingly improved. He may be killed, but if he isn't, facing his fears is much better for him. Of course, Patton used the same psychological method on himself: He was scared of seeing a bullet coming right towards his face so he forced himself into front-line battle in order to face that fear.

Bob

I find most of the opinions about PTSD are given by people that don't have it. It's like an unskilled laborer telling you how to do your job. I did my full time and only got diagnosed at the very end. Then they said to me "But you've been operating for 30 years like this"...like that was an excuse or a pass. Having a man rattle along isn't the best thing for the situation. By pressing him back into battle, he will likely get killed and then you don't have a problem any more. If he makes it out, things will be much worse.

Anywayzzz, I'm done here. This is one where I feel if you aren't affected and you aren't a Psychiatrist, you don't know. You're just opinionated. And I've heard enough public clap trap about this one.

I realise that yoiu comment ain't against anyone in particular BAR and I waited until there was a sort-of other side view before I mentioned the newspaper article view. But he did accept that it DOES affect plenty of people to a lesser or greater extent (we now have ambulance men here claiming it for the gruesome scenes at accidents.....) but the greater proportion of sufferers quietly take the treatment. While those he rails about don't take the treatment and use it as an excuse when things in their lives go pear shaped.

Looking back on my experiences, Vietnam, etc., I'll say this: the human mind is a very complex, very unique thing. They are, at least so we are told, the product of biology, nurture, experience, education, and heaven only knows what else. That said, no two of us is going to react the same way to the same experiences. My reaction to what I did and saw during my time in combat and how I dealt with it mentally, emotionally and intellectually, was mine and mine alone.

What I'm trying to say here is I don't think there is one solution to shell shock, battle fatigue or PTSD - all the same thing really.

Some of us, like me, who had a family history WWI WWII Korea, Malaya, Vietnam, of experience understood what war is and were able to use that to at least understand to some degree that what we went through was a common human event and we were not alone in what we felt, how we felt, what we thought and how we thought.

Faith in God, or perhaps faith in the righteousness of the cause gave - or gives, some comfort. But that - faith, I believe, has to be there and be strongly held long before the events to offer real benefit.

All I can say now, looking back, is that we who have been through the mill need to be there for our 'younger brothers'. We need to be there offering an ear, sharing our experience, letting them know they are not alone in all this.

I need to add that I think the worst thing we and they can do is live or keep trying to relive the past. Living in the past, living on memories is stagnation. Focusing on the future gives us a way forward, it creates motion physically and emotionally, and leads us to a new life.

Like Paul said, no two people react in the same way to the same situation. I heard the same thing from an Afghanistan vet who said he had no major problems with PTSD but many of his comrades did after being in the same situations. He said," He didn't hold it against them, everyone is different."
Patton's slapping incident was over the top and he was nearly sacked over it. I have read accounts of men who were in the thick of it in WW1 and WW2 for months even years and did everything and more that was expected of them. And one day they simply broke and suffered a total mental collapse. A WW2 vet told me a similar story about his sergeant-major who suffered a breakdown in Holland. He said, "He was the bravest man I ever saw, he just couldn't take any more."

Somewhere in his book Lord Moran writes of each man having a 'bank balance' of courage. Some men have a smaller balance than others; these we call cowards, other have a greater balance than common men, but if any of them is called upon to draw on it too frequently his credit becomes exhausted and he breaks down.

I don't think 'courage' has much to do with it.
More than likely it goes back to our Social structure and upbringing, when we are earbashed for all our formative years about right and wrong.
Only to be thrown into situations where all our beliefs go out the door.
Trying to juggle our ethics in violent situations,against our previous teachings leaves us in a mental quandry when we are allowed too much time to reflect.
Once soldiers were taught to hate the enemy, now it's uncertain exactly who the enemy is, women and children are suddenly thrown into the equation.
The very people we spend all our time to protect suddenly become a threat.
I can't speak for what's in everyones head, I just know from experience, that it's very difficult to feed back into normality without assistance.

The PROBLEM that many outsiders are now up against is that it's not just some (it's still a very small proportion apparently) of the ex servicemen who suffer from this, it is now ambulancemen, Policemen, Firemen. Enough said there as it'd be a tough call to call this battle related. But in a case in point recently, an electricity board man who watched his friend virtually fry alive while working in an old electricity sub station. The irony there was that he is now permanently disabled with PTSD........... and guess what........... the friend who was literally fried alive was off work for 6 months, recuperated and is now back at work! I realise that it's not compring like with like but it illustrates the vast difference between what Muffer says/correctly illustrates and what's happening.

I suspect that there is also a "conditioning" factor.

How many people grow up in the "conditions of yesteryear.

Helping "dad" behead the "Sunday roast" chicken.

Wringing the necks of quail or pigeons.

Watching the shooting of an old family horse or dog because it can't stand up anymore.

Having family members of all ages die in their beds in the same house.

Helping butcher a familiar cow / goat / sheep etc, for food for the family.

.......and so on and on.

One of the huge changes wrought in the 20th Century was the "isolation" of death.

Meat is something that arrives in neatly cut pieces on styrene trays and wrapped in polythene.

Almost NOBODY except hunters and farmers kill and butcher their own meat.

People die in hospitals or "respite" centres.

The survival rate for disease AND combat injury is incredible in comparison with ANY time pre-WW2, thanks to medical science.

TV and films provide a weirdly "sanitized" portrayal of death and maiming: there are none of those distinctive "smells" for a start.

I have never been in combat and I am keeping my fingers crossed. However, I have ended up on the scene of several very nasty road "accidents", including a few "fatals". After the "training" has played its role to get things done, the knees go wobbly and "a good sit-down, black humour and a stiff drink" are in order, especially after the really "messy" ones. How the ambulance crews, cops and fieries etc, who deal with it on a daily basis, cope, is astounding.

Another situation is the train drivers who literally come face-to-face with suicidal types who step out onto the tracks and look straight into the drivers cabin up to the point of impact. A friend of mine decided to get another job after he had "collected" his third suicide with the front of his train. Most of his fellow drivers who have experienced the same, "retire" after the first one; counseling can only do so much.

Bruce, I agree that 'conditioning' has a lot to do with it. Conditioning to hardship, pain, and suffering as well as to death - and understanding that they are natural and common human events, allows one to accept and endure all manner of trauma.

I saw my first dead man when I was 17 years old. He died before my eyes, at my feet when he was thrown during a car smash. Even then, I had an understanding that dismemberment or disability and death were a possible consequence in life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The PROBLEM that many outsiders are now up against is that it's not just some (it's still a very small proportion apparently) of the ex servicemen who suffer from this, it is now ambulancemen, Policemen, Firemen. Enough said there as it'd be a tough call to call this battle related. But in a case in point recently, an electricity board man who watched his friend virtually fry alive while working in an old electricity sub station. The irony there was that he is now permanently disabled with PTSD........... and guess what........... the friend who was literally fried alive was off work for 6 months, recuperated and is now back at work! I realise that it's not compring like with like but it illustrates the vast difference between what Muffer says/correctly illustrates and what's happening.

---

That is a whole other nasty can of worms. Here in Canada the government has come under fire for being obstructionist with vets claiming PTSD. One vet who suffers from it recently commented that the soldiers have only themselves to blame for most of the delays in getting treatment. He says the PTSD "gravy train" has attracted a lot of malingerers who are anxious to get a fat pension or settlement when their only ailment is greed!! This is from the mouth of a vet who has been through the system and jumped through all the hoops. A good friend works as a civilian employee on a nearby military base and tells me abuse is rampant by those returning from Afghanistan and a running joke locally. Some who barely set foot in the country are claiming they are unable to function due to PTSD. Personally I find it hard to sympathize with most who are volunteers and signed up to be soldiers. Being a soldier is an honourable profession and if you sign up you are aware of the possibility that you will be sent to other parts of the world and live in bad conditions and experience nasty things. Those with physical wounds are subject to the same bureaucratic BS when they return, one Canadian infantryman lost a leg from an IED in Afghanistan and to keep getting disability benefits every year he has to submit documentation that his leg is still missing!! As far as I know limbs do not grow back but I haven't had the training of the paper pushers at DND.

I've done some work with PTSD, not vets but children/teenagers with trauma. My wife has had two bouts of PTSD from her work wearing a blue uniform (actually she doesn't wear the uniform, preferring plain clothes) from several shootings and recovering dozens of bodies in the Black Saturday fires. She still loves what she does, but the old signs of PTSD never really go away, in her case hyper-vigilence, threat assessment and situational awareness are now just a part of her normal life. From my position, having worked with it as a psych and lived with it at home, it's not so much what the trauma was that gets you, it's everything you do about it every day afterwards that really makes or breaks a person.

Home early from my holiday in North QLD.
This original thread is now a bit mute, the young bloke I was mentoring chopped himself........drove his car into a tree, the only one on a straight stretch.
Found 5 calls on my answering machine from him............I just wasn't there for him, sorry....this makes me feel real bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by muffett.2008

the young bloke I was mentoring chopped himself........drove his car into a tree, the only one on a straight stretch.
Found 5 calls on my answering machine from him............I just wasn't there for him, sorry....this makes me feel real bad.

---

I'm sorry to hear that. I can imagine how you feel. But...in the long run, there was nothing you can do to stop it. Slow it down perhaps, but in the long run you can never tell what will happen. You can't blame yourself.

A sad ending indeed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Home early from my holiday in North QLD.
This original thread is now a bit mute, the young bloke I was mentoring chopped himself........drove his car into a tree, the only one on a straight stretch.
Found 5 calls on my answering machine from him............I just wasn't there for him, sorry....this makes me feel real bad.

---

Sorry to hear Muffet, but good on you for doing what you could. This was just one young bloke, there are far too many more so don't give up on mentoring when the opportunity presents itself. You can only do what you can, the outcome is in their hands and never yours.