Fall of Saigon - 40 years ago

Watched a good documentary on Seattle PBS the other night about the evacuation of Saigon. Lots of heroes and heroic deeds.

Politics aside, I noted a few carbines in the footage. Saigon police outside of the US Embassy during the mayhem, carrying them on their shoulders. Also, a few shots of ARVN's with carbines, although I wasn't sure if this footage was during this time period, as I think most had M16's by then.

Another scene showed ARVN's arriving by a SVN Huey on a US Navy ship offshore. A sailor had disarmed them, and he is shown pitching an M16 over the side, followed by a carbine. Guess we know where that one went. The empty Huey soon followed into the drink.

Records indicate between 600,000 to 800,000 M1/M2 carbines went to SVN from the US in the 60's, and before that the French used them in their Indo-China war. One would suspect there was some of those left behind too. Wouldn't doubt most or all of these all went into a melting furnace as scrap.

A couple of yrs. ago I saw pic's. on one of these forums of piles of rusting guns and used equip. parts left over after we left. I believe they were taken in the 80's. GK.

If anone cares to revist this sad day in history I recomend Goodnight Saigon: Charles Henderson: 9780425188460: Amazon.com: Books. I think I will re read it myself in remembrance of the many heros.
I have seen many documentaries on the fall of Siagon and the looks on the faces of the folks trying to get out is hard to forget.

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Originally Posted by manteo97

he is shown pitching an M16 over the side, followed by a carbine.

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I understand, that was absolute pandemonium and there was NO time. The easiest thing, and they probably were following orders anywayzzz, was just pitch them. Don't have to prove it clear that way and you don't have armed foreign nationals on a US man of war...

A friend sent me an interesting article by an officer on the last ship out of Vietnam at the end of the conflict in which he described the last shots of the "war." As they were pulling away out from shore, two well-spaced artillery rounds landed in the water close behind the ship. The writer said the battery clearly could have hit the ship - they had been accurately pounding the officer's unit for days before they withdrew. He said the shots were an insult, meant to say, "We could have gotten you if we wanted to, losers."

Bob

We don't want this to turn into a political issue. I'm sure bad blood and feelings for many.

As for Carbines in Vietnam, there were plenty. We had some on our boats.

We also left a ton of munitions, what a waste.

piles of munitions left in vietnam - Google Search

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Originally Posted by JimF4M1s

We also left a ton of munitions

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I'd still like to have a sort through those piles. I know I could make a couple of silk purses out of them...

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

looks on the faces of the folks trying to get out is hard to forget.

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As a Vietnam vet, it's still hard to come to grips with the bizarre way we fought the war. Most don't know that by 1969 we were well aware of Mao Tse Tung's genocide of over 50 million Chinese. He was a brutal psychopath.

What is unfathomable to me to this day:
Why was the information not made public by the US government about Mao's vicious slaughter of professors, doctors, lawyers, priests and professionals to show the folks at home and our boys dying in the jungles that this war really was worth fighting?

I prefer collecting WWII weapons and have very little militaria from my Vietnam days -- guess it's still hard to heal the wounds.

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Originally Posted by shadycon

A couple of yrs. ago I saw pic's. on one of these forums of piles of rusting guns and used equip. parts left over after we left. I believe they were taken in the 80's. GK.

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Thanks Jim: this is the one I was taking about.
Gun Graveyard | Armory Blog

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Originally Posted by shadycon

A couple of yrs. ago I saw pic's. on one of these forums of piles of rusting guns and used equip. parts left over after we left. I believe they were taken in the 80's. GK.

Thanks Jim: this is the one I was taking about. Gun Graveyard | Armory Blog

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As gun collectors we are saddened to see the waste. These are but rusted symbols of the real heroism that held these guns. We collect these symbols as reminders of the stalwart courage of the brave souls who risked their lives for our freedom. To see these symbols rust is to tarnish and corrode the patriotic spirit, like letting buddy's lives be tossed into a rubble heap. The photos symbolically remind me of the bones of the dead from the WWI concentration camps we discovered in Poland.

But I'm sure many of you that read this post wonder each day we see terrorism and destruction rampant abroad and even at home: What is wrong with people that causes them to revel in killing. The destruction of all these guns didn't make the world safer, smarter, or more compassionate. It is only the courage of strong and righteous warriors that keeps the likes of Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, Pol Pot, and Osama and all the terrorist psychopaths from pillaging the world.

Thanks guys for standing tall, bearing the pain today, forty years later, and being willing to fight for what was actually a war worth fighting (even though people at home didn't realize it at the time). Some knew that we had to stop Mao somewhere -- Vietnam was where we put a stake in the ground.

While in tactical terms, we did not "win" the war; we won enough time for Mao to die, to be replaced by Chow En Li, for Henry Kissinger to talk some sense into Chinese leaders, and for China to see the world from a less aggressive perspective.

In this sense we did win the war . We should all stand proud of what we did. (Yes, we can also say that China is still to be feared, but I'd rather fight the economic war -- it's more civilized.) Let's all hope the battles in the Middle East are successful in changing the mindsets of some very perverted thinking.

And now back to our passion and forum topic, Carbines. :super:

I think most people do not equate M1/M2 Carbines with Vietnam. Members here have used them in Vietnam. We still had a couple in the SP arms room in 1979 (along with at least one Model 601 AR15 with green furniture and my GAU-5/P Franken Carbine that was on a 601/602 lower). I know several other vets that carried carbines in Vietnam. Stormin Norman Schwarzkopf carried an M2 as a green Lt. in Vietnam.

As for the fall of Saigon, I was on duty in the MP station at Oakland Army base the day Saigon fell. It was not a good day.

My uncle told me a story about how him and some guys where shooting the breeze cleaning their weapons and a sound they never heard before forced them all to the deck. Turned out to be the USS New Jersey shelling targets inland. He said the sound was incredible and he didn't feel sorry one bit for those on the receiving end.

Our boats were about a half mile away and we watch BB-62 let go six guns at the same time. It looked like the ship slid sideways. But in reality the weight mass and four foot recoil slide took up all the energy. What we saw was the illusion the muzzle blasts had on the water. Pretty impressive, and loud.

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

USS New Jersey shelling targets inland. He said the sound was incredible and he didn't feel sorry one bit for those on the receiving end.

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I was on the firing line for Operation Linebacker in '72 as the battle cruisers and destroyers let loose at the DMZ. We were only about 1/2-3/4 mile from shore as I recall. Target: Ho Chi Min Trail. The sound was like a hundred thunderbolts. Our ship shuddered and shook, not just from our own guns, but from the others on the battle line. (Sorry, guess this isn't about M-1 carbines -- oops)

[QUOTE=Seaspriter;330969]As a Vietnam vet, it's still hard to come to grips with the bizarre way we fought the war. Most don't know that by 1969 we were well aware of Mao Tse Tung's genocide of over 50 million Chinese. He was a brutal psychopath.

What is unfathomable to me to this day:
Why was the information not made public by the US government about Mao's vicious slaughter of professors, doctors, lawyers, priests and professionals to show the folks at home and our boys dying in the jungles that this war really was worth fighting?



The Viets and Chinese have been fighting for hundreds of years. Chinese are packed into Cholon the largest ghetto in Saigon. Beyond selling the Viets a lot of arms and ammunition (including thousands of carbines and 105 mm guns) they have no connection. They fought two wars on the common border (The Viets won both easily) after we left and are about to have a really big one over oil off the coast of VN.

Digressing myself, we have gotten further and further away from our intended forum topic. For that reason I am closing this thread.

Jim