1944 BSA No.4 T Arsenal Refinish ?

Through discussion and some photo sharing with a friend, the conclusion is that this rifle has been completely arsenal refinished/fitted. A confirmation or otherwise would be appreciated. It was an import from Canada many years ago and it drives tacks. I've been well pleased with it. Peter, you may remember the scope or perhaps wish I didn't remind you :D

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What makes you think it's refinished? It looks original to me.

What makes you think it's refinished?

---------- Post added at 09:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 PM ----------

Oops, sorry for the double post.

I was first thinking it was just too clean. It has a dark grey/blackish phosphate type finish on it that the "T" has clearly been stamped over. I guess a good question would be was this the original type of finish for a T?

Beautiful rifle! :thup:

Looks original to me. I'd be happy to give it a good home.

The serial number has been restamped although maybe that was done during conversion to "T" because the engraved numbers were so light. It may have been a 1944 rifle that just got phosphated and painted with Suncorite 259 post war. It appears that someone has cleaned off the paint which is damned difficult to do! I do see remnants of the paint finish left though. It's still a nice original rifle.

In my (obviously) not so humble opinion, whoever told you that rifle is refinished is not familiar with 1944,45 BSA No4 MkI(T) snipers in original condition.

I'd be willing to specify though that someone may have slightly over cleaned the receiver "brunofixed" metal though.

Thank you, Gentleman. My use of the word "conclusion" was incorrect. "Speculation" is a more accurate term. Brian, the remnants of the paint was one of the things pointed out suggesting it had been cleaned off during a reconditioning and the "T" stamped afterwards before going into stores. I appreciate all the comments, thank you.

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

In my (obviously) not so humble opinion, whoever told you that rifle is refinished is not familiar with 1944,45 BSA No4 MkI(T) snipers in original condition.

I'd be willing to specify though that someone may have slightly over cleaned the receiver "brunofixed" metal though.

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Lee Enfield: I know I'm hopelessly confused about this. In your experience, what was the original metal finish applied from '42 to '45 by BSA and what, if any, "touchup" refinishing was done at H&H (ie after machining and installing the front pad)? I don't believe I've ever seen this explicitly documented- just lots of vague comments in diverse threads.

Ridolpho

I've seen a lot of brunifixed (the textured looking parkerized finish) on 44 rifles, in fact I'd say on most I've seen that I could be certain hadn't been tinkered with later. It is difficult to be precise on when suncoriting first started exactly, as one could be looking at a 'late' rifle with original suncoriting or a slightly earlier rifle that got suncorited later on. I agree with Brian & Lee Enfield on this though - you have a peach. You can see by the crispness & depth of the S51 & other stamps that they've never been sanded or scraped.

Have a good look at the general appearance & 'feel' of the woodwork, coz that's how the woodwork on an unadulterated late war rifle should look.

Peter, can you shed any light on the date when suncoriting was initiated?

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

What makes you think it's refinished? It looks original to me.

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Yes, completely original I'd say.

I think the best was of reasonably accurately dating it would be from Mk2 Bren guns. Because by serial number, they can be 'accurately' dated to a month within a year. So when the first phosphated and painted Brens came on stream, then I feel sure that'll be when it became the norm on No4's. Just a quick off the cuff guestimate you understand. The new and far superior phosphating and paint finish was adopted across the board. But like all things in wartime, if such a change was to upset a manufacturers production processes it could be phased in over a period of course. But that rifle is as good as it gets.

Don't forget that this heat-blast brunofixing process was only applied where the original surface had been broken down. Such as where it's been machined away, fixture marks, the pads of course

I agree that it looks like a lovely "as converted matching" 1945 set (i.e. still has the first scope assigned to it) No. 4 MK. I (T).

You are fortunate as it seems that most of the No. 4 sniping equipment sets we see in North America are mismatched.

The No. 8 MK. I scope case is interesting in having a 1945 date. I have two with 1941 dates and the rest are undated. This is the first one I have "seen" with a 1945 date.

The missing strap on the No. 8 MK.I scope case is typical for some reason. We are still waiting for someone to find the box(-es) of leather carrying straps that were removed! For those missing a strap, Moore Leather in Scotland makes nice replicas.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tinstrap-1.jpg
http://www.mooreleather.co.uk/sniper...ap-no-32-scope
Moore also makes replica scope caps as well as carrying handles and hinge stops for the No. 15 chest and leather goods for other sniper rifles an so forth. I have purchased a carrying strap and No. 15 carrying handles from Moore Leather and am pleased with the products. They are not cheap, but then they are made in the same country as the originals were made (check the DNA on the leather ;-) and are not cheap copies made "elsewhere".

A question for Peter Laidler and others - Was it a standard operating procedure to remove the carrying straps later in service?

No, it wasn't a rule of any sort to remove the leather carrying case carrying strap or the leather sling. It was just common practice. when in use with the sniper. The leather rifle sling is fine when you use it on a nice manicured range on a sunny day but come the rain and damp and they're useless. Just ask a horse rider who takes Dobbin cross country riding in the rain. Or your old nineteenfifties dubbin and rain soaked footie boots. If leather really was that good, it'd still be used now. Instead snipers have gone back to what the snipers were tacitly doing for ages. Cotton webbing is best.

Had a good look at the chest tonight. I had never wondered if it was original to the rifle or not, I just assumed not. Now, I'm not so sure after seeing the date on the side. If that reads as the 24th of July, 1945 then it was made on my birthday 19 years before I was born :D At least it matches the scope can date.

Attachment 62526

The 1945-dated, No. 8 scope cans seem to be kind of scarce. I don't recall seeing very many.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seaforth72

I agree that it looks like a lovely "as converted matching" 1945 set (i.e. still has the first scope assigned to it) No. 4 MK. I (T).

You are fortunate as it seems that most of the No. 4 sniping equipment sets we see in North America are mismatched.

The No. 8 MK. I scope case is interesting in having a 1945 date. I have two with 1941 dates and the rest are undated. This is the first one I have "seen" with a 1945 date.

The missing strap on the No. 8 MK.I scope case is typical for some reason. We are still waiting for someone to find the box(-es) of leather carrying straps that were removed! For those missing a strap, Moore Leather in Scotland makes nice replicas.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tinstrap-1.jpg
http://www.mooreleather.co.uk/sniper...ap-no-32-scope
Moore also makes replica scope caps as well as carrying handles and hinge stops for the No. 15 chest and leather goods for other sniper rifles an so forth. I have purchased a carrying strap and No. 15 carrying handles from Moore Leather and am pleased with the products. They are not cheap, but then they are made in the same country as the originals were made (check the DNA on the leather ;-) and are not cheap copies made "elsewhere".

A question for Peter Laidler and others - Was it a standard operating procedure to remove the carrying straps later in service?

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Spike DD - Your No. 15 chest matches your rifle. Note the pencilled serial number 36984 on the chest end label.
:-)

@Seaforth72...lol, Yes, I did notice that but it could have been done by any knob end that owned the rifle prior to me, which I'm sure you are aware of. I'm well satisfied enough that the chest and can have matching dates, as for the chest being original to the rifle...who knows.