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Hello all.
I like to reload for my 6.5*52 Carcano.
But, what was the original load? Hope to be able to duplicate it, so it is more suited to the sights.
I have some new Norma hunting loads, but are they loaded to hot for these old guns?
I know in my Krag, we can NOT use modern 6.5*55 ammunition.
The original load was a 162gr RNFB FMJ bullet at about 2170fps from a carbine length barrel. 6.5mm Carcano's have a slightly larger bore than other 6.5's and accuracy usually isn't all that good with ammo that's loaded with standard .264'' bullets. Hornady makes(or did at least) a .268'' 6,5mm bullet specifically for loading the 6.5 Carcano, but only load data developed by Hornady for this particular bullet should be used.
Every modern 6.5x52 is safe for a Carcano, primarily because it is also the only rifle that really shoots it. These are a bit of a odd ball round, they should use a 160 grain round nose bullet. It is also recommended to slug your bore as most are set up for a .268 bullet not the standard .264 6.5 diameter bullet. I have also heard it is recommended to use a faster powder with the round as it tends to group better (expecially on the earlier models with the gain-twist rifling).
I haven't started playing with this round for reloading yet (still getting the equipment, and intending to play with some easier rounds to make first) but I have heard that it is a pain to get right, but when you get it right it preforms excellently.
Thanks for the reply.
Then, I will slug my barrel and maybe try it with lead bullets if I am not able to find something else.
OK, time for a bit of thought about the 6.5mm Carcano bullets.
It is cold, wet, and very windy, so I abandoned the garden and looked at some Carcano bullets – and the Hornadys.
Measurements were made with a Moore & Wright bench micrometer that reads directly to 0.0001” and is calibrated with a standard inch. These measurements should be correct to within +/- 0.0002”.
The original Carcano bullets have a diameter of 0.2665” and an open base. The jacket wraps around the open base to create a slight hollow – of which more later. Both types (nickel-plated or plain jacket) have the same diameter within the limits of my measurement.
The older, nickel-plated version, in a brass case with a very heavy 3-point crimp, has a headstamp SMI – 932 = Societa Metallurgica Italiana, 1932. The second, plain-jacketed version, in a lacquered steel case without a crimp, is stamped SMI-941, i.e. from 1941. Although one might think that these changes were purely a wartime economy measure, maybe the Italians discovered that the non-crimped rounds were actually more accurate? Certainly the crimped bullets show a deformation of the base that would horrify precision shooters.
The Hornady bullets do not have a diameter of 0.268” - as marked on the box – but 0.2673”. That is noticeably larger than the original, but definitely smaller than the stated 0.268” - how did it come about?
My theory (and I would welcome measurement by other shooters, as I may be drawing erroneous conclusions from an anomalous batch) is that the original 0.2665” Carcano bullets actually relied on the “hollow base” obturating slightly to fill the grooves when fired, providing a good gas seal while at the same time using a main diameter that was a trifle smaller than would otherwise have been required, thus reducing friction and barrel wear, and producing a higher muzzle velocity than otherwise achievable with the intended charge. In effect, somewhat like the “bore-riding” bullets used by some BPCR shooters!
Now Hornady knows something about bullets, so I imagine they were aware of these aspects. However – maybe for good manufacturing reasons – they used a closed base and therefore increased the diameter to provide adequate filling of the grooves. It would be interesting to see if others have Hornady bullets with a full 0.268” diameter, as this would indicate that the diameter was modified in production – maybe because of the pressure sensitivity arising from the full 0.268”.
Of course, this is somewhat speculative, and measurements by others plus a comment from Hornady would be helpful in solving the puzzle. Nevertheless, I suggest that
the Carcano should shoot better with flat, open-base 264s than with closed-base or (IMHO the worst) boat-tail bullets of the same diameter.
Sorry about formatting and failure to insert photos in the right position - the software is slowly getting more and more peculiar!
I happen to still have a box of early(no cannelure) Hornady Carcano bullets and they do measure .268'' accordind to my Starrett dial calipers and I double checked with a Starrett 0-1'' micrometer. This is the best I could do since I no longer have access to any fancier measuring gadgets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
I also have some of the current production Hornady Carcano bullets and they measure .267''.
The few original Carcano bullets I have measure(according to my cheesy instruments) a bit less than .267'' below the cannelure and .265'' in front of the cannelure, suggesting a dual diameter bullet like the standard .264'' 160gr Hornady bullets are.
If you'll look I think you'll find ALL fmj bullets have an open base. It has little or nothing to do with obturation, it's just a part of the manufacturing process since the core is inserted from the rear and the jacket skirt is folded inward to lock it in place. Hornady's Carcano bullets are soft point so they can be used for hunting or target shooting and the manufacturing process for SP's is bass ackwards from FMJ's as far as which end the core is inserted from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
You contact them this time. The number is 800-338-3220. Besides, I'm still recuperating from the last arse chewing you gave me when I consulted Hornady about a Carcano related disagreement we had a while back.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
In the end anyone wishing to reload for the 6.5x52 Carcano has only two choices, use standard .264'' bullets and hope for the best or load the purpose made Hornady's with the appropriate data and get much better results.
"Besides, I'm still recuperating from the last arse chewing you gave me when I consulted Hornady about a Carcano loading disagreement we had a while back."
Good heavens! I do apologise if that's how it came across.
But thanks for the confirmation that Hornady indeed appear to have reduced the diameter.
As to the open base thing, I was merely conjecturing that the Italians were taking advantage of a side effect, not that it was the starting point of the design. Because of the expansion on impact that is desired for hunting, soft-point bullets would have been regarded as illegal ammunition under the Geneva Convention, so they had to make them with a closed nose and open base. Unfortunately I have not (yet) found any 264s of the right kind for some comparative tests. Suggestions welcome!
No worries Patrick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
The only open flat base .264'' bullet that comes to mind at the moment is the Nosler Partition. However these have very thick jackets in the rear section below the partition so I'm not sure they'd give the desired results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
I believe the original intent was for the open base to be forced into the rifling as they also used a extremely fast-burning smokeless powder for the 6.5 Carcano (at least early on) which was the main reason they used gain-twist rifling. It was a common idea at the time (look at the original 8x50r round the Austrians were using for a true example of people that believed in the round being forced into the rifling).
At the moment I am toying with the idea of a bump-up die to make .264" bases just the 0.0035" fatter that ought to be adequate. However, having several other hungry muzzles to feed with somewhat less than everyday ammo, the Carcano is way, way back on my "must do, some day" list!
I also think Hornady backed off the diameter a skosh. IIRC, the most current boxes of bullets aren't marked 0.268" any more. But most of the bullets I've bought recently were cosmetic "blems" that came in sealed plastic bags of 100. Have had the rifles on light duty lately as I've been on an IHMSA binge, trying to topple steel critters whilst standing on my hind legs, so haven't kept up with Carcano things too well...