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Gentlemen,
I have acquired a VERY nice 1945 Long branch No. 4T with transit case and mount. Unfortunately it does not have a scope with it.
what would be the proper scope for the rifle?
I have a possible lead on a No. 32 MkI but the cosmetic finish is very rough. The seller says the drums move freely and the glass and reticle are in good shape.
would it be worth picking up the MKI even if it is not the correct scope?
All opinions are welcomed
-Nick
Hello Nick, congratulations on the Long Branch T.Quote:
Originally Posted by ncozzo
The serial block (first 3 numbers) of your rifle will tell us whether the originally proper scope was a C.No32MkII or a C.No32Mk3.
the number is 90L821x
the optic in question is a MKI, which I guess would not be correct.
pictures can be found here: http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=541&f=5516&t=13877319
The proper scope for your rifle would be an REL manufactured C.No32Mk3Quote:
Originally Posted by ncozzo
What are the odds of finding one of those?
would I be better off buying a repro while I looked for something more correct?
Buying a repro? Don't even bother is my advice to you. Others have different opinions of course but I say think mickey mouse watch. Looks good on the outside but ain't much good for telling the time!
I suppose you could get the grotty looking Mk1 for the cheapest price you can. Then have it rebuilt to use. Later you could look for a grotty/needy/worn out Mk3. Any Mk3 will do as in the post war UK Military and into the L42 era we had a mix of REL scopes on UK rifles and UK scopes on the remaining LB and S rifles. It didn't matter one jot to us. When you've got your grotty Mk 3 rebuilt you can sell the now perfect Mk1 to offset the cost.
Just my 2c's worth
Is the REL scope number stamped on the wrist of the Rifle?
Add the Rifle to the list if not already there .... you never know, sometimes lightning does strike.
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=48117
I sold an original REL Mk III scope and Canadian mount last year for $4000 U.S. I sold it to help fund my all matching Long Branch rifle, mount, scope.
it went back home to Canada. I'd like to see photos of your rifle.
The only REL scope I know of for sale currently is at Lawrance Ordnance at $3K. A better scope for your 90L but big dollars.
Lance
Lawrance Ordnance - Military Telescopic Sights
Suggest you go after the Lawrence scope.
I think I am going to pass on it MK I and wait till I can afford the proper scope for the rifle. The rifle is too nice to put the proper scope on it.
I will try to get pictures of the rifle and transit case.
Thanks for all the advice.
Can I just suggest that while you're ignoring the Mk1 scope and looking for a Mk3, of an old saying my mum taught me. 'A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush'.
And a Mk3 scope doesn't make your rifle more accurate either. It's just that one is graduated slightly differently.
ncozzo,
Wise words from Peter (post #13) in the future I would guess a Mk1 will be a sort after scope, quite a few trials No4T,s have come to light recently and would guess probably more to follow as nature takes its course or the need for quick cash arises...... new owners faced with the prospect of hunting down the original scopes or as near as, would pay a good premium or be prepared to do a swap etc.
I imported a nice trials No4T last year for a forum member, the rifle was a really nice example with the original Mk1 scope number legible, He has a Mk1 for it but would probably trade some of his organs for the original.......
I never thought I,d be the owner of a T, but had four No32 scopes before my first legit T arrived, recently was very lucky in an auction to gain another T and only a few weeks previous took the plunge and bought another Mk3 scope and bracket on ebay.... (very reasonable also) it was never cash I had or saved, it was a case of knowing what I could sell off to raise the funds. If I,d never bought, collected, sold or traded etc over the years it would of been a hell of a struggle, probably a lot of ear ache also.....
You're right Big Duke. It may sound a little self serving to my wife, but I always argue that in buying collectable rifles, scopes etc., I am not really spending the money in the sense of it being gone forever (like in spending it on an exotic holiday - very nice but nothing left afterwards other than a rapidly fading tan & some snap shots), but just converting it into another form. Some people do it by turning money into gold, jewellery, or Chippendale furniture; we do it by converting our money into Lee Enfields. If you buy wisely you can always get your money back, if not make a profit, as & when you need to. And of course you have the pleasure of owning them in the meantime.
Just so long as she doesn't ever REALLY ask me to sell any................;-)
Ha indeed Roger and Dukie - it's not 'spent' as unlike most things you can always get the outlay back unless you've really got carried away, of course! My wife too understands this.... But Roger's right too... It's all theoretical until you sell 'em - and as if you ever really want to do that!
Heartly agreed Roger, Enfields are like owning something tangible. Having money in the bank these days is a waste of time. After you pay taxes on the interest (interest is basically nil) there is nothing left. Banks these days as I see it, are vulnerable. Your monies are nothing more than a figure on a computer screen. If the world economic system completely tanks, even if you have some savings...the banks or insurance companies would never be able to re-emburse you unless you had a wheelbarrow to pick your cash up in!!!! I wish I had followed this truth wandering the various isles of different gun shows over the years, my collection would have certainly been more valuable and would have included a few more T-series rifles including a much sought after correct Longbranch at a "reasonable"price. The wives think that buying guns is money spent and loss, wrong.....it's make-up, hairdresser's and tampons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
.
Another thing you ought to remember Nozzo is that if you thought the Mk1 was expensive today, you just wait until you see a Mk3 for sale......... And when you go back for the Mk1, it will have gone up in price too. Everything is cheap - yesterday
If you think that 20 years ago we were stripping them for their spare parts value
I think the Mk III on Lawrence went for 2.5K Au without the bracket and if you think thats expensive I think S&B's latest offering at $7,000.oo is way past my price range that drags off Premier and March and Swarvo's by a long way and it still wont make you a crack shot sorta like saying you own a Lamborghini but ya cannot drive the thing to its full potential and from what I have heard they are uncomfortable.
In about 1998 when Charnwood were preparing to pack up I was in the fortunate position of knowing the owner & his son reasonably well as a fellow collector. Consequently I was offered one or two things before they went into the big auction of Robert's collection that was held at Bonhams. One item was a mint REL CNo32 Mk3 scope, complete with its lens caps, bracket & Mk2 canvas carrying case. At the time the going price for an equivalent British Mk3 was about 350 pounds, but Rob wanted 450 for the Canadian example. I cussed him heartily for 'exploiting' me, but handed over the cash. I still have the scope (as I managed to track down its 90L rifle). Would any forummer turn down a mint REL Mk3 with bracket, lens caps & scope case for the equivalent of 650 to 700 dollars, or 600 euros these days? What would my money have been worth now if I'd left it in the bank?
Incidentally..........................it's serial number 1C.;)
Well I think that I am just going to bite the bullet and buy the R.E.L. Mk III
If I have the control to make something as correct as possible it would bug me if I didnt.
What is a set up like this worth? I don't have good pictures at the moment but the rifle is in phenomenal condition and the transit case is in good shape as well.
Good move
Nick how about some pics of the rifle ?
The rifle is currently at my parents place but I will try and get pictures as soon as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigduke6
wait I found some pictures of the rifle on my cell phone. Also the correct scope for the rifle would be the one listed on Lawrance Ordance correct? http://www.lawranceordnance.com/shot...copes/615c.php
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../288mm1t-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6/zwi44h-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../21dhnpy-1.jpg
The rear pad looks highly suspect. Other comments from others.......
At the risk of differing with you Pete I thought it looked ok, considering we're looking at a late LB rifle. All of the examples I've seen (certainly 44 & 45 dated rifles) have the large countersink with the screws set slightly below flush. Mind, I'm assuming the rear pad screws are flat head countersunk. Or am I missing the point & was it something else about the rear pad that you had suspicions about?
As available some higher definition photographs would be helpful.
Well I'll see if I can get pictures. What exactly would you want pictures of?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
I was suspicious of the 4BA screws as they looked a) like machine heads and b) well below the usual level of the pad. Whereas ours are flush and made off to suit. But if that's OK with DRP, then that's good enough for me. No further pics required..........
Alright well if it's good enough for you two gentlemen than I am more than confident and convinced in its originality.
I guess I'll be purchasing that R.E.L. MkII ...
It looks nice. As Peter says, the rear pad screws should be flat headed not domed like the front pad screws. The pix aren't super clear (no offence to you as you were using your cell phone), but it does look a little like they could be either! However, if they're definitely flat then I doubt you have any worries.
If it's a 90L rifle you really could do with a REL Mk3 scope, but I'd settle for any scope to be going on with - you can always trade up to a CNo32 Mk3 as one becomes available.
Yes, this seems to be a feature of Canadian sniper production.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Looks like a nice rifle, does it still have the serial number of the original scope stamped on the top rear of the butt stock?
I note that Roger P had 90L8218 at some point...
The screw heads are domed and the the number on the top is 227c
My mistake the screws are flat.
I want to apologize for being a pain with all the questions but I am trying to learn and educate myself.
Since the R.E.L. MkIII is actually the correct scope would I be better off going with a cheaper British scope instead of the Canadian MkII? What are the odds of actually finding the MkIII? Should I just be content with having a Canadian scope?
***Not sure if it matters but I did just find out that the MKII is a 1945 production same year as the rifle.***
Also as a side note neither the transit case or the scope mount have a any numbers on them. The case has spots for rifle number and scope number but they are empty. The scope mount doesn't strike me as a repro because the guy I bought it from said his father had it for a very long time and the old weaver scope that was mounted on it when I bought it would corroborate that story.
I would pick up the Canadian scope myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by ncozzo
And ...
I think a picture of the scope mount is required.
On the other hand......... your rifle came from England by the 'ENGLAND' giveaway mark on the butt socket and UK proofs. If it came from UK Military war stocks then there's a reasonable chance that it left our service with a Mk 3 scope of any make! We weren't particular about who made what I can assure you - although we would have numbered the butt to match. You are going to have to have VERY deep pockets to find an REL Mk3 so think of it this way......... Whichever scope you put on it, it is still a No4 Mk1T
As Peter says, it will hurt your pocket when a Canadian Mk3 does appear. However, it will almost certainly be worthwhile in (more) correctly completing your rifle. Lee Enfield knows more about this than me & will no doubt put us all right if needs be, but I think a 1945 Canadian Mk2 scope would more likely be from a late batch 71L rifle. To the best of my knowledge ALL of the 90L rifles were scoped up with Mk3's.
I think it's entirely up to you what to do in the meantime - a UK Mk3 or a Canadian Mk2 - I personally don't think it matters too much.
I would also back up the request for a few photo's of your scope bracket, as I'm sure with the collective knowledge on this forum any mysteries concerning it will soon be resolved.
I will get a picture of the mount as soon as possible!Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
... anything that you would like pictures of?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6/rlamvl-1.jpg
I was mistaken the mount does have the number 30096
That ain't the original mount for that rifle. However it does illustrate the point I mentioned......... If THAT mount came with the rifle from England, then THAT mount sported a UK made telescope. QED!
Could it be possible since it was a late production rifle that it was shipped without a scope and they fitted it with one when it arrived?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=486830156
... how abut this one on gunbroker. CTS MKIII and save me a couple bucks until/if I ever found a R.E.L. MKIII
That's a very nice original rifle. It was obviously shipped to England with REL No.32Mk.3, sn.227-C. My uneducated guess would be that the scope was swapped with another British one in it's British bracket when it was imported to the USA prior to 1968. The British rifle serial number is on the bracket. Kleins in Chicago as well as Interarmco in Virginia, Hercules Surplus in Toronto and others swapped scopes and mounts at random with no regard for keeping them together. That's why only about one in ten is found mated with all it's matching numbered kit. The British scope was swapped out for the Weaver I'd guess.
Before my time but a fellow collector recounted a surplus shop many moons ago, in Calgary had barrel of snipers and pile of scopes in the tins on a table across the room. They were sold separately!
You picked a rifle from the barrel and IF you wanted put down a few extra dollars for a scope you walked over to the table and grabbed a tin from the pile...
How times have changed.
For those new to the game vis. such details such as screw head discrimination, here's a Long Branch rear pad versus a British version:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zpsd68a-1.jpg
Seventy some odd series "L" serial number Canadian.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff052-1.jpg
Trials rifle in this case, but the flush nature with overhang on the edges machined flush very typical.
As I noted in the thread about the 90L serial numbers, Jawes has this scope (227C) incorrectly paired with another rifle (90L8115). However, Peter Laidler noted that scope in service with the bracket for 90L8212. I am assuming Jawes has a mk3 scope with that serial.
I do indeed have scope 227-c with bracket #90L8212.
Have been conversing with ncozzo
Jawes