Some great guys on here helped me authenticate my jungle carbine but I am curious as to why I cannot find the "england" export mark or any import marks. Does that mean that my rifle stayed in England?
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Some great guys on here helped me authenticate my jungle carbine but I am curious as to why I cannot find the "england" export mark or any import marks. Does that mean that my rifle stayed in England?
"England" is not an export mark because we don't have them. It was a Country of Origin mark that was required by the US authorities.Quote:
Originally Posted by mahbann
Looking at the picture of your rifle, I see that it has been Proofed in London at some point after it left service. (This is legal a requirement for any non-governmental sale.)
I have no idea why some firearms appear to get into the US without pre-1968 GCA Country of Origin marks or 1968 GCA Import Marks.
So I guess that's a good thing that mine doesn't have an import mark? (least that I'm aware of) Mine also doesn't have "England" marked anywhere on it either (least where it's usually found.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerhunter
Some collectors in the US are little anal about such marks.Quote:
Originally Posted by mahbann
BTW, a huge number of Lee-Enfields were exported/imported by Sam Cummings's Interarms. They all have Birmingham Proof marks because they were Proofed at Interarms in Manchester by an "outpost" of the Birmingham Proof House. As far as I know they all carried the "England" mark.
yea see I dont have any BP mark all I have is the NP which I think is just the nitro proof before 1954 for London and I have the London commercial proof but no "England" stamped anywhere on the rifle :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerhunter
If you missed the enlightening conversation between Beerhunter and Captain Laidler today about proof marks, here's their conversation:
Seaspriter: Was the Birmingham Proof House a separate, independent entity from Birmingham Small Arms (BSA)?
Beerhunter: Yes. Absolutely. http://www.gunproof.com/ And there is an older Proof House in London Worshipful Company of Gunmakers Between them they have a Statutory responsibility for gun Proof in the UK .
Peter Laidler: Proof houses..... They really are nothing more than self perpetuating quasi autonomous non government organisations - or QUANGO's for short. who answer to............., well, nobody really knows! Let me put it like this.......... The way the quaint old 1860 rules were written and re-written since, when the UK Military buy weapons from abroad - and we ain't talking third world here but the likes of the USA and Canada ..... and I mean well tried and tested weapons, like M-16's, Miniguns and L116's plus pressure bearing spares then regardless of the proofing or strict manufacturing processes/regime in the manufacturing Country, they have to be re-proofed in the UK at great cost. I mean, what does that say.......
And guess what - again......... The quaint 1860 rules mean that even a blow-back unlocked open bolt fired SMG barrel has to be proofed! Whatever for........? Even in service, even if it were made of the mildest of one-way trip mild steel, It CANNOT fail because the bloody breech block is blowing back!
Ain't answered your Q SS but you can see where I'm coming from
Beerhunter: Couldn't agree more Peter.
There was time when they served a purpose but their testing methods are now archaic and in recent years they have started to get above themselves - making it up as they go along.
We have an opportunity to sort them out soon when the Law Commission looks at Firearms law.
BTW, there is no requirement in law for the Government to have firearms Proofed - they are exempt.
so how come I don't have the "England" country of origin mark?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaspriter
Lacking the "Country of Origin" mark means, most likely, that your gun came into the country in the 1950s or early 1960s. (see Guns Magazine archives from the late 50s to see fascinating ads for Enfields, Mauser's, etc.)Quote:
Originally Posted by mahbann
The Gun Control Act of 1968 tightened up all import rules, which were virtually non-existent up until this time. Remember, Lee Harvey Oswald bought a $19.95 Manlicher Carcano to kill JFK and this set a lot of regulations in motion.
Hope this helps.
BTW, thanks for asking so many questions, that's how we all learn real fast. I learn a vast amount just by having the Milsurps "League of Masters" chime in on so many things.
The answers are staring you in the face if you think about it instead of expecting to be spoon fed. It may have been brought into the US by someone who purchased hth rifle in the UK, Australia, NZ or any country that that requirement didn't apply. It may have also been imported into the US before that requirement was made legal, who really gives a Rats Arse it doesn't have one.
You're right Aussie.......... Just an hour or so browsing the forum first would crack it AND save repeating things over and over and...........
I disagree with you Robert. The country of origin stamp requirement came into place in the mid 1930's. Most firearms found in the USA that have it were definitely imported prior to 1968 when the Gun Control Act was passed. At that time with regards to firearms, the country of ORIGIN requirement was changed to country of MANUFACTURE. The rifle in question is very likely as Aussie 48 states, brought back prior to the GCA '68 and not through commercial channels OR it may have been imported post 1968 and the import marks were not applied. Many thousands of rifles have been imported since 1986 when they started allowing surplus C&R military firearms back into the USA. Warehouse employees are human and it's just common sense that some slipped through the cracks without being so marked.
Thanks Brian, I stand corrected and appreciate your insights. Boy, there must have been a lot of sloppy folks out there or back door dealing -- I have at least a half dozen Enfields with no country of origin stamped (and believe me I have looked!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
Because I'm a history major and I wanted to know? Not trying to waste anyone's time I was just curious. I work all day I can't surf forums all day long..didn't mean to offend anyone was just curious on the history of it so I thought I'd ask..thought that was the point of these forums was to ask questions. Just because you don't care about if it's been imported legally or not doesn't make it a stupid question to ask/care about. By no means did I mean to annoy anyone on this forum I 100 percent admit I am new to milsurps and just want to know as much as possible. I'll try searching more before I ask questions to avoid annoyance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie48
If your rifles don't sport post 1968 import marks it's entirely possible they got here any number of ways. We share a border with Canada and you know many have come down here in years past by other than the usual, (read LEGAL), channels. I was being inspected by CBP one Friday afternoon many years ago at Port Huron, Michigan knowing full well there were probably more guns flowing into the USA in the non-truck lanes because there was a big show at the Gibraltar just down the road a piece that very weekend. I saw the signs all over I-94 when I was heading to Canada to get the load earlier that week. Of course, the Customs inspectors were busy checking off serial numbers from my approved ATF Form 6 permits! On the other hand; if they're recent imports which really should be pretty obvious since most came from the far east, India or Pakistan, they may have just missed them. Picture the warehouse stacked from floor to ceiling with No.5's from the far east at Century Arms. :)
Don't be dismayed -- keep asking your questions -- it's the best way to learn. The only dumb answer is the one not asked. We all started as ignorant, and the best of us (that's not me) are still learning (I still am). It's been said that real masters of any field are the best students as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by mahbann
I think what Aussie48 is driving at (pardon me if I misinterpret) is that you must also dig, research, and learn. Be sure to download and read all of the Laidler Library and research other threads -- they are enormously revealing. I am thinking of putting my entire Enfield research files into an open Dropbox where anyone can access them and contribute their research as well. If this is of interest or value to people, chime in.
---------- Post added at 07:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 PM ----------
Thanks Brian, as usual you have answered a "puzzlement." I actually have a picture of some of the Interarmco warehouse stacks which I'll post if anyone is interested.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
Stratton's books are a good, cheap, read (although contain some errors) and if you are really interested in the history of the rifles (and can stomach the cost) get Skennerton's tomeQuote:
Originally Posted by Seaspriter
Gun people here are not keen on things that have been screwed up by stupid laws. So, not having an import mark makes it more desirable.
Of the hundreds and hundreds of Lee Enfields I've had through here since their release from reserve stores in the late 80's and onwards until the early 2000's, the quality of most was way above average. Some of the first Interarms marked No.4's released directly from the MoD disposals unit at Donnington in the late 80's were in near new condition. The same held true for Lithgow rifles direct from Australian stores. The Lithgow SMLE's I ordered when I first got licensed in 1990 were from Pacific International and were gorgeous rifles. John Jovino in New York had a treasure trove too. There were also wartime dated No.4 rifles in newish condition. Not just new 1950's dated No.4Mk.2's which came later. The best rifles were stored as reserve rifles while many earlier releases were culled for one reason or the other so it just stems to reason that post 1968 imports were generally in better condition then rifles released prior to that time. Later, I got 400 No.4 rifles from a big distributor in SC that were also imported by Interarms but from South African stores. There was a block of 33 Savage rifles that were excellent to like new sans a few dings and dents from handling and a very few Long Branch rifles with wartime dates. The majority were early Fazakerley production to include some of the first No.4Mk.2's. Wow, I wish I had them all back! I learned to pretty much regard the import marks as just another part of the history of the rifle. I know the anal collectors hate it but it's a fact.
I would point out the England stamp can be missing from a pre 1968 Enfield rifle. The law required the rifles to be identified, it did nto require them to be marked. The England stamp was added to meet the impor requirement, but was not always present on a rifle for the following reasons:
1 ) Imported from a country other than the UK. I have been lead to believe that century imported a quantity of No 1 MK II rifles from either Belgium or Portugal that had no such England stamp. I have read a few different stories on that, but it is apparent that Portugal got rid of their No 1 MK III rifles from WWI post 1963 and that they ended up in Century arms hands. Apparently never sent out with any such ID.
2) The Irish lot that came in direct from Ireland in 1961 had no such stamp. To meet the requirements of to identify the country of origin each rifle was shipped with a slip certifying it was from Ireland.
Your rifle was Proofed in London and the marks are post 1954.Quote:
Originally Posted by mahbann
Hello folks ... :)
A few things I'd like to contribute and also make a request ... ;)
mahbann
You might want to try our Google CSE custom search engine located in the top right corner of the web site titled Search Milsurps.Com. It only searches our site using Google techniques and can be quite fast and more efficient then what other gun sites on the Inernet utilize. For example, in your case, type in the words england export mark and see what happens. There are dozens of old threads with many with pictures that you might enjoy, covering various aspects of this particular marking.
Everyone else
Our site is blessed with a LOT of highly experienced serious Enfield collectors and many authors of books on the subject. We all appreciate the mutual comradeship and sharing of knowledge with each other, about this wonderful world of Enfields and the hobby surrounding them we all enjoy so much.
Having said that, we all started somewhere and I, as much as any of you, feel the frustration at times when yet another post shows up that says.. "what does this mark mean?"... :p
I think the best way to approach these type of questions instead of belittling a burgeoning new collector (member) who also may be uncomfortable with computers or our site, would be to save the phraseology I showed above. Once saved, then simply cut-n-paste it, altering the search phrase as appropriate, into any posts that may help the member to better search and locate already available information on his own.
It is astounding how much information and content is available on our site going back over 9 years. Just for fun, all of you should try various phrases and see what turns up with this customized Google search engine. :thup:
Thank you for everyone's consideration ... :cheers:
Regards,
Doug