Cadmus Folder

Anyone remember these? I know posting in a milsurp forum is a bit of a stretch for this but I figured M1 lovers would appreciate it. These were made between 1960-1963 (Might be off on my dates) by a company called Cadmus Industries for National Ordinance. They are actually quite nice and imho probably the best folder ever made for the M1 Carbine, but are quite hard to find and pricy when you do find one.

Anyway I picked one up at a out of the way gun shop today and thought I would share
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Very nice, looks to be in Great condition.

Thank you sir, it is in pretty decent shape.

Here it is with my James river installed;
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Very cool!

I think those were sold by Federal Ordnance in the early 70's. Not all that comfortable to shoot. In fact there were a couple of different versions of this but they are better then the pull out metal wire stock that were made about the same time.

Actually they were made in 1966, see this link about 1/2 way down page. National Ordnance M1 Carbine


I have one sitting on my desk as I type (with a Plainfield mounted in it). I was making the buttons that work the folding part last night, when I got my stock the buttons were broken off. I also have a complete wood portion that I just listed on the CMP forum for sale but if it does not sell it will go on fleabay on Sunday. At one time someone had used it for full auto as it has been carved out for an M2 "happy" switch and clearance for the transfer bar. Looks like they carved it out with beaver teeth, ugly but does not affect how the action sits or the function of the weapon. I was thinking that if someone adds a forward grip, like on a Thompson, it would make a neat compact hand fired rifle. With the action installed in the wood it is still 26" long so legal for a rifle. Or someone could find or make the wire part of the stock as the wood I am selling has the internal metal pieces, except for the buttons but if I can make them anyone can lol. Here is an album of the stock.
cadmus stock-wood - Album on Imgur

Thanks for the information all

cannot edit the above post but I just sold the wood I had for sale on the CMP forum.

Here is the Cadmus stock I have on a Plainfield. I just cannot bring myself to put it on one of my GI carbines for some reason.
- Album on Imgur

Is anyone familiar with the Stocks from Fulton Armory. I have an extra Carbine the I could use. I've never been a really big fan of those, I guess it goes back to a friend that had one and the Wire Stock was just so loose. I just didn't care for it. Now I saw one being sold at this gun Shop here for big bucks and it was tight and held firm. But I don't think I would be buying one soon, but maybe before they get outrageously expensivve.

Frank

The Cadmus is a firm stock as it folds and locks, the ones that pull out (like this ARMSLIST - For Sale: M1 Carbine adjustable stock)
are not stable, I got one on a trade with a carbine and could not get rid of it fast enough. M1A1 repros are ok but they don't truly lock open and can start to fold while shouldered with a little pressure the wrong way. It only sells for big bucks if it sells, they can ask anything they want.

I have the exact same stock that a friend gave me years ago. I like it, but it is missing the spring and locking detents. I need to fabricate something.

I had to make some as well, pretty easy. Take the stock to the hardware store to fit the steel rod (I will check later to see if the rod I bought has the barcode w/ size and let you know. I have a couple of crude ones from my first attempt, they were too long so I remade them. If you want I can send them to you, you can use them (you have to find a spring that will work) or you can use them as a guide to make your own. I can also send a little piece of blank rod with them for you to make your own. Just pay the shipping. You can send a PM with your address. Are you allowed to have a stock like this mounted in Cali?

These are them, my first attempt, they work but a little long
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Quote:

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Originally Posted by cali201

(I will check later to see if the rod I bought has the barcode w/ size and let you know.

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Just grab it with a dial caliper...give us the numbers. You could also use numbered drill bits, they're better stuff.

Thanks guys, I plan to mount my M2 in this thing and see how it holds up.

I got to checking my Cadmus when getting ready to fabricate the lock pieces, and found it is for a Universal M1 Carbine, not USGI! DANG!!!! Maybe be able to modify it, but not sure it is worth the hassle. I did see one for standard carbines on EBAY for $99 opening bid. Maybe I will fix it and sell it.

I just picked one of these Cadmus stocks up but it's missing the screw that holds the receiver in in the back. Does anybody know if it will take a screw from a usgi stock?

As part of my research on National Ordnance and Alpine I interviewed their founder, Bob Penney, who turned National Ordnance over to John Arnold about 1963. Also interviewed Bob Brenner, founder and owner of Sumdac, Cadmus, and Federal Ordnance before his death a couple years ago. Also met with Wyant LaMont, manager of Sumdac, Cadmus and Federal Ordnance

The folding stock was modeled after the concept of the German MP-40 stock. The inventor was Jack Karnes, who worked with Brenner off and on since Golden State Arms. Karnes died before I started the research.

If you are not aware of it, National Ordnance under Arnold was next door to Federal Ordnance and Brenner in the late 60's and into the 70's. They worked together on various projects.

The first under folder Karnes came up with was sold in 1963 under the name Sumdac Corp in Hollywood, CA. Cadmus is Sumdac spelled backwards. By the 1970's Federal Ordnance was selling them. I believe there are a total of 4 variations of this stock that occurred over time. The example below was the last one, sold by Federal Ordnance.

Shotgun News September 15, 1967
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The design's biggest weakness is the metal tubing at the point it meets the large metal circle that contains the release button. The forces exerted when folding and opening the stock puts pressure at these points and eventually the metal cracks at this location.

Universal Firearms and Iver Johnson used the Federal Ordnance stock for one of their carbine models in the early 1980's.

The telescoping stock shown above was made for/by Plainfield for their carbines. It's biggest weakness is when firing a carbine with the stock extended and against the shoulder the wood the tubes slide into tends to crack at the point where the tubes enter the wood.

Plainfield Machine catalog 1969
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The 3 pics above aren't mine, not using them to illustrate.

Another wood telescoping stock was designed and made by Bianchi in the mid to late 1960's. this one held up better.

Shotgun News September 1, 1967
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ATI copied this Bianchi design using a polymer stock with telescoping metal rods.

I have info on a lot of commercial stocks of various types. My focus being the companies and carbines along with my other work these have taken a 3rd tier priority for addition to the website.

I also have info on three commercial M1A1 folding stocks currently being sold. Trying to ID the manufacturer of the one used by Auto-Ordnance and the other being sold by Numrich and Fulton Armory. I'm out of time so won't post pics at the moment.

Just to get your brain working, here's a mystery for you ... not folding but interesting. Before passing judgment, this stock was designed in the 1960's when civilians had yet to gain access to the AR-15's in any kind of quantity. Who made the stock for the designer was Fajen. Never marketed and pretty rare.

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Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeg900

I just picked one of these Cadmus stocks up but it's missing the screw that holds the receiver in in the back. Does anybody know if it will take a screw from a usgi stock?

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Jeg, if you mean the screw that goes through the recoil plate into the stock then no. The screw the Cadmus stock takes screws into the wood itself so you will need a wood screw. GI carbines screw into a metal escutcheon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sleeplessnashadow

As part of my research on National Ordnance and Alpine I interviewed their founder, Bob Penney, who turned National Ordnance over to John Arnold about 1963. Also interviewed Bob Brenner, founder and owner of Sumdac, Cadmus, and Federal Ordnance before his death a couple years ago. Also met with Wyant LaMont, manager of Sumdac, Cadmus and Federal Ordnance

The folding stock was modeled after the concept of the German MP-40 stock. The inventor was Jack Karnes, who worked with Brenner off and on since Golden State Arms. Karnes died before I started the research.

If you are not aware of it, National Ordnance under Arnold was next door to Federal Ordnance and Brenner in the late 60's and into the 70's. They worked together on various projects.

The first under folder Karnes came up with was sold in 1963 under the name Sumdac Corp in Hollywood, CA. Cadmus is Sumdac spelled backwards. By the 1970's Federal Ordnance was selling them. I believe there are a total of 4 variations of this stock that occurred over time. The example below was the last one, sold by Federal Ordnance.

Shotgun News September 15, 1967
Attachment 65183

Attachment 65175 Attachment 65176

The design's biggest weakness is the metal tubing at the point it meets the large metal circle that contains the release button. The forces exerted when folding and opening the stock puts pressure at these points and eventually the metal cracks at this location.

Universal Firearms and Iver Johnson used the Federal Ordnance stock for one of their carbine models in the early 1980's.

The telescoping stock shown above was made for/by Plainfield for their carbines. It's biggest weakness is when firing a carbine with the stock extended and against the shoulder the wood the tubes slide into tends to crack at the point where the tubes enter the wood.

Plainfield Machine catalog 1969
Attachment 65182

Attachment 65177 Attachment 65178 Attachment 65179
The 3 pics above aren't mine, not using them to illustrate.

Another wood telescoping stock was designed and made by Bianchi in the mid to late 1960's. this one held up better.

Shotgun News September 1, 1967
Attachment 65184

Attachment 65180 Attachment 65181

ATI copied this Bianchi design using a polymer stock with telescoping metal rods.

I have info on a lot of commercial stocks of various types. My focus being the companies and carbines along with my other work these have taken a 3rd tier priority for addition to the website.

I also have info on three commercial M1A1 folding stocks currently being sold. Trying to ID the manufacturer of the one used by Auto-Ordnance and the other being sold by Numrich and Fulton Armory. I'm out of time so won't post pics at the moment.

Just to get your brain working, here's a mystery for you ... not folding but interesting. Before passing judgment, this stock was designed in the 1960's when civilians had yet to gain access to the AR-15's in any kind of quantity. Who made the stock for the designer was Fajen. Never marketed and pretty rare.

Attachment 65185

Jim

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Jim, got any info on "Owens"? I have an Owens slider in what looks like black synthetic, with steel rails. With the sliding stock, it's wide and quite heavy! I've removed all the sliding stuff and added a foregrip and it's a bit more comfortable...

Russ

Not much info on Owens. Do know they had difficulty getting people to buy them due to their weight and the design of the slide well. Owen Stock Company incorporated by David Owen in Independence, MO 25 Feb 1999. Larry Ruth has a bit more info on them. Also aware one of the family still had a bunch and popped up on Ebay a couple years ago selling off the leftovers. He's still there: http://www.ebay.com/itm/30-M1-Carbin...item43d9076b0c

I can only guess at why they designed it like they did. Maybe to accommodate the Universal and late Iver Johnson Carbines. Maybe to avoid a run in with Choate or someone else over a patent issue. I'll have to ask him. Thanks for the reminder.

Jim

Shotgun News April 1, 2004
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Quote:

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Originally Posted by cali201

Jeg, if you mean the screw that goes through the recoil plate into the stock then no. The screw the Cadmus stock takes screws into the wood itself so you will need a wood screw. GI carbines screw into a metal escutcheon.

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Thanks for the reply. Yes the recoil plate screw. So it's just a matter of finding something that works? Probably gonna be a challenge to find something with a head like the one that goes into the recoil plate.

I wood (pun intended) imagine you can take a wood screw that is the correct length and dremel the head slowly to fit the recoil pad, then cold blue it.

Jim, Are you saying there is more then the one company in Italy making reproduction M1A1 stocks?

I have no idea about who or how many companies make the M1A1 stocks but I would guess only one, not that much demand IMO.

Bruce

The past year I have been doing a research project on M1A1 stocks. GI, and the current commercial offerings. That the M1A1 stocks are made in Italy has been the prevailing view but I can find no evidence to support this. S.I.L.E. in Brescia, Italy made them back in the 70's and 80's I believe. Along with a variation for the Erma Werke Model EM1 .22. But S.I.L.E. Italy appears to have ceased to exist. Corporate docs show SILE USA ceased to exist in CT in the mid 80's, then was gone from NYC by the late 90's.

Pietta in Italy offered an M1A1 stock for sale in a prior catalog, but I was unable to determine if they made it or it was made by someone else in Italy. It's no longer listed in their catalog. It has several unique characteristics more like the M1A1 replica carbine being sold under the Denix name (Spain).

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Besides the Denix M1A1 stock, which is specific to their replica and will not fit an actual carbine, there are 3 different M1A1 stocks being sold by a multitude of retailers. Two may have been made by the same company with one being an earlier version and the other being the latest version. I'm guessing on this and think there may have been a number of changes by this manufacturer over time. Mostly involving the rivets and cheek piece.

Maybe what I'll do is a separate post for each of the 3 and add a 4th for the Denix replica. Time is always my biggest challenge and why I'm not on the forums very much. I have to stay focused with all I'm doing.

Jim

Made in Taiwan. Wood is stained with walnut stain but a lighter wood than walnut. Cheek piece is not leather. "Tubes" are solid. Buttplate spring overlaps side of irregular sized buttplate. Fit requires modification.

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Nice walnut, appears to be real leather, rivets are unique and distinctive. Requires hand fitting.

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For whatever reason, the barrel band area (right) was not milled like every other M1A1 stock (left) and detracts from it's authentic appearance
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Odd color is accurate depiction.
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This one is similar to a previous one used by Auto-Ordnance. Don't know if it was the same manufacturer making the AO stock or a different manufacturer. Rivets on the AO stocks have changed over time and this one may be a previous version, may not. Requires hand fitting. Correction on Sportsman's Guide, their stock appears to be the one sold by Numrich but haven't acquired one to make sure.

Note: Numrich decided to weld the stock to a fixed position for sales to California. M1A1 stocks are not illegal in California. Unless a carbine is placed within them creating a carbine with a folding stock. The carbine with the folding stock is illegal. For the purposes of what I do I have no interest in a carbine with a folding stock. I document the stock itself. The damage to the recoil plate in the pic below was my lameness in removing the weld.

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This stock is obviously specific to this replica. The "Tubes" are solid and one piece instead of two. The buttplate spring isn't a spring, it's cast as part of the metal frame.

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These pictures were taken by others. I just collected them for reference purposes.

One of the problems with the use of "stock photos" provided by a seller or wholesaler is they often do not reflect what is currently being shipped. SARCO's listing for their M1A1 stock is a prime example. They show several different M1A1 stocks instead of just the one they currently sell.

The other challenge is people have built M1A1 stocks using a variety of parts from different manufacturers in addition to a few GI parts.

As always, if it's advertised as "GI" don't bet on it. If it's advertised as "GI Design", "GI Style" or any variation other than just straight "GI", a bet it's not GI would likely be a low return winner.

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Jim
USCarbines.com
M1CarbinesInc.com
BavarianM1Carbines.com

P.S. I have a web page for the original U.S. M1A1 Carbines that includes a complete breakdown of the parts. It's not linked to the website yet as I have a couple final things to add I'm waiting for.

The main complaints on the one I have are imitation leather, folding mechanism drags against the bottom of the grip, oiler is a loose fit, and the hand guard rivets are "shiny" and installed upside down. The heads of the hand guard rivets had to be worked down in order to clear the action on my Inland. Also, believe the rivets are aluminum. It's a nice dark walnut (I think) and I bought it from a private dealer - current (new) stock in 2007. Are the "upside down" hand guard rivets typical of what's found on most of these? - Bob

I think the most common rivets I've seen on handguards that accompany commercial M1A1 stocks have been pop rivets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sleeplessnashadow

Not much info on Owens. Do know they had difficulty getting people to buy them due to their weight and the design of the slide well. Owen Stock Company incorporated by David Owen in Independence, MO 25 Feb 1999. Larry Ruth has a bit more info on them. Also aware one of the family still had a bunch and popped up on Ebay a couple years ago selling off the leftovers. He's still there: http://www.ebay.com/itm/30-M1-Carbin...item43d9076b0c

I can only guess at why they designed it like they did. Maybe to accommodate the Universal and late Iver Johnson Carbines. Maybe to avoid a run in with Choate or someone else over a patent issue. I'll have to ask him. Thanks for the reminder.

Jim

Shotgun News April 1, 2004
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The base of my Owen is not "opened up" for the commercial carbines, ie, it is sculpted to be a direct fit to the USGI trigger housing...

Russ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RASelkirk

The base of my Owen is not "opened up" for the commercial carbines, ie, it is sculpted to be a direct fit to the USGI trigger housing...

Russ

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The only commercial manufacture who changed the dimensions of the trigger housing to the point of requiring a matching stock was Universal. That change happened after they had already made and sold thousands of carbines with a trigger housing that would fit a GI stock. The barrel and gas piston housing used by a number of commercial manufacturers at various points in time was a separate issue affecting the stock fit. I'm only guessing at why Owens would design their stock as they did. Very likely it was for other reasons.

I bought one off Owens on Ebay a couple nights ago. Then asked him what the original intent was in designing it with the over sized forend. I haven't received a response yet. If I do I'll share it here.

Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sleeplessnashadow

I think the most common rivets I've seen on handguards that accompany commercial M1A1 stocks have been pop rivets.

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I've only looked at a couple of these beside my own, but none had pop rivets. Are you sure about that? Here's a couple pictures of my handguard - you can see where the rivet heads contact the barrel. - Bob

Was having a senior moment when I said pop rivets. Need to get back in my cage. Was probably thinking of the rivets used on the cheek piece of the M1A1 stock being sold by Numrich.

Some of these were made by the same companies. Just pulled them out and shot them for this post. The next to last is the Inland Manufacturing commercial handguard.

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Jimhttps://www.milsurps.com/images/tact...isc/pencil.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sleeplessnashadow

The next to last is the Inland Manufacturing commercial handguard.

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That one does look like pop rivets! - Bob

PS- Maybe mine are too, and they flattened them (which closed the hole) after installation.

One other thing to note about the Owens, the handguard is shorter than a USGI, I want to say about a half inch shorter...

Russ

Russ

Heard back from Owen the e-bay seller. He says the rectangular part under the front of the forestock was intended as a "hand grip". He's selling them out of his home in Independence, MO. Same address of Owen Stock Company. Nice home but I don't think he's having them made there. Looked for a patent couldn't find one. Prior ads indicate made in the USA from Rynite. Rynite is trademarked to Dupont. These may be left overs from an initial large order or he may have them made up in smaller quantities as time goes on. Given the price I suspect they're leftovers, but just guessing.

Jim

Had to look, mine was used and came out of FL. Your link for original "new" ones is less than what I gave for a used! :eek: Thanks for posting!

Russ

Russ

I received my Owens stock. The finish on the extending stock was not complete with steel still showing in places. For the price, easily rectified. After cleaning it up it looks better.

Did you have to do some alterations to get the recoil plate to seat properly? Mine, looks like I'll have to remove some material to either side of the top of the recoil plate to get it to align with the bolt hole.

Hope to shoot pics in the next few days and post them here.

Thanks...

Jim

P.S. All of the commercial M1A1 stocks/handguards, the Owens stock/handguard, and the Denix replica I obtained for experience, documentation and photos. I normally resell items like these to obtain addition material. Only change to the M1A1 stocks is they now have the proper brass rivets, albeit a few rivets have the typical small crack or two on the side opposite the leather from rolling the rivet instead of flattening it. Otherwise they are what they are when I obtained them new.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sleeplessnashadow

Russ

I received my Owens stock. The finish on the extending stock was not complete with steel still showing in places. For the price, easily rectified. After cleaning it up it looks better.

Did you have to do some alterations to get the recoil plate to seat properly? Mine, looks like I'll have to remove some material to either side of the top of the recoil plate to get it to align with the bolt hole.

Hope to shoot pics in the next few days and post them here.

Thanks...

Jim

P.S. All of the commercial M1A1 stocks/handguards, the Owens stock/handguard, and the Denix replica I obtained for experience, documentation and photos. I normally resell items like these to obtain addition material. Only change to the M1A1 stocks is they now have the proper brass rivets, albeit a few rivets have the typical small crack or two on the side opposite the leather from rolling the rivet instead of flattening it. Otherwise they are what they are when I obtained them new.

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Jim,

My fit up was good, the barrel was just 1/8" or so off the stock with the RP cinched down tight. I have a spare perf metal HG, I may try to slice out a section of holes and shorten it to fit. That plastic HG looks like dammit...

Russ

As you will see below, the weld on the rear of the telescoping stock was a pretty sloppy job. Recoil plate will require moving a small amount of poly to get it to fully seat. Barrel Band Spring hole was drilled thru the right side and on the left from the outside in but not completely through the left side. Not a problem as it allows for a custom fit.

While the forend is obviously styled as a hand grip, I suspect the reason for the extra poly up front is to give the screws that hold the middle and front half of the side pieces something to grab onto.

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Jim

Hey Jim, forgot to mention. The "bullnose" was a bit large on my Owens and had to be sanded for the barrel band to fit w/o a hammer. OTOH, a beautiful walnut Boyd's stock I got new off E-Bay needed to be built up with stained epoxy so the BB would even cinch up at all...

Russ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RASelkirk

Hey Jim, forgot to mention. The "bullnose" was a bit large on my Owens and had to be sanded for the barrel band to fit w/o a hammer. OTOH, a beautiful walnut Boyd's stock I got new off E-Bay needed to be built up with stained epoxy so the BB would even cinch up at all...

Russ

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Took a mallet to get the barrel band on and off mine too.

Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sleeplessnashadow

Made in Taiwan. Wood is stained with walnut stain but a lighter wood than walnut. Cheek piece is not leather. "Tubes" are solid. Buttplate spring overlaps side of irregular sized buttplate. Fit requires modification.

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Sarco has these on special this weekend for $119.95 with free shipping if, anyone is interested - Bob

http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/m1m2carbin...m_medium=email