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I ordered 2 cmp specials from the cmp south store a month or so ago and they came in last week. I noticed there was little to no finish on the wood and I wanted to make the wood look darker like the original gi wood. What do I need to use to put a darker finish on the wood and make it look original?
Thanks,
Emanuel
Can't go wrong with Chestnut Ridge. Good stuff....:thup:
Miscellaneous Parts and Accessories
Don't use the oil based stain found at Home owner Harry's or Lowes. Chestnut ridge is spirit based which penetrates hardwood much better. After staining finish up with raw linseed oil or boiled linseed oil. I'll leave it to you to research the difference.
Ok sounds good! Thank you for that! I'm about to order some here in a little bit.
I would finish with straight tung oil (no dryers) instead of BLO... that's what SA NM used with super results.
You have to order straight tung oil right? I don't think that stuff lowes or walmart offers is straight
"Tung Oil" finishes in the big box stores usually contain no tung oil. If you want real tung oil you just about have to order it.
BLO used on a stock will tend to darken it, more so than Tung oil. The armory applied tung oil to the stocks in later production Garands and M14s but the finsh was maintained by the troops with plain ole' linseed oil. Tung will give a slightly glossier finish than linseed and will be slightly more water resistant. Either will give a GI type finish.
I tend to use BLO. On a new CMP stock I will apply the first coat sloppy wet and rubbed in hard, allowed to stand for about an hour then the excess is wiped off. The stock is allowed to dry (polymerize) until dry to touch. If the stock has whiskered the second sloppy coat is wet sanded, gently, with fine paper just enogh to dewhisker and get a smooth surface. the oil is rubbed in hard to generate heat and wiped off in ablut an hour.
After the sloppy coats have "dryed" subsequent coats consist of only a few drops rubbed in hard to generate heat and allowed to "dry" but not wiped off. In warm weather I usually can put another coat on the next day. This is repeated till I get the finish I want or just get tired of oiling the stock. It won't be glossy and it won't fill all the pores but it is GI correct. Maintenance coats are with "gunny Paste" which is equal parts by volume of BLO, Turpentine, and Beeswax mixed together in a double boiler (don't want a fire) and stored in small airtight containers. Apply small amounts and rub in hard to get a uniform coat and let sit over night. buff the next day with a clean cloth. Ready for inspection.
It takes awhile but it makes a real GI correct finsih which I prefer on my old soldiers.
Jerry Liles
Jerry Liles
Thanks Jerry! Ive got 1 winchester and 2 HRA with correct gi stocks and I love how they look. And I can't wait till I get the cmp stocks looking like gi. Before I asked the question I just rubbed some flax seed oil on them and they looked alot better.
Flax seed oil is Linseed oil.
Yea I figured that out a little while ago lol
Time & usage provides the original color with LO or BLO. Chesnut Ridge stain will "hurry" it some but not make it authentic. Patience grasshopper"Quote:
Originally Posted by Eman98
Take your time, use them and after a year or so you'll be happy (happier))
Neither is the newly manufactured Boyds stock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Haas
Flax is a heck of a plant. As stated, the seeds are crushed for linseed oil that used to be the foundation of paint, and the fiber makes... linen! I know about flax because as a very young trainee I lost a month's pay ($300) in one day trading the futures :( When my wife asked, "How was your day, honey?" I had to tell her we were broke until next payday.
At least you lost it in legitimate pursuits. I would tell the first wife I was working overtime at the refinery. The truth was myself and a few other lads were at the boobie bar knocking back overpriced beer and helping young co-eds make their tuition payments. Had to tell the wife more then once we were broke for the week. Fun times, Not a single regret. :madsmile:
I used to think a mullet was a good idea too. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Steve762
I use Formby's tung oil, thinned with mineral spirits. I rub with 0000 steel wool after each coat to remove excess finish; also use after the final coat to eliminate gloss. This carbine stock (WW2 USGI replacement) was stripped, then finished with 3 coats of tung oil:
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Neal
I like 'em just a TAD shinier... my standard was the SA NM finish, kind of a matte sheen. FWIW, the SA Museum Preservationist, however, said NEVER use linseed (or any) oil on the stock, he used microwax. Ditto the metal... heat in the oven to 210 degrees, coat with microwax, buff -- never rusts. He gets $200 per gun to treat it.
That's why he says not to use oil. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by bob seijas
Wax is used to preserve firearms in a museum in a controlled environment or before taking it out into the rain. In the museum at Springfield it is used on firearms that have already had the stocks finished with linseed or tung oil and is not a finish itself. Waxing a stock and even the metal may preserve a finish and may be a good idea before exposing your rifle to a harsh environment but a finish still needs to be present.
Yup, some use carnauba wax from the auto parts store.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob seijas
This is the right way to do an M-1 stock. Don't use RLO -- it never really dries, darkens with age, and picks up dirt. BLO has been chemically altered by heating to create a polymerized molecular chain that both dries and is less susceptible to darkening into a chocolate brown (which RLO will do) over the years. Be sure to hard-rub the last coat of BLO to heat the surface to make it set hard. Then treat with Tung Oil -- this is what was done on the original M-1s and is the recommended process on the CMP website. Tung oil is a better protector of the surface than BLO.Quote:
Originally Posted by 13Echo
Also, be sure to melt a 50/50 mixture of candlewax & petroleum jelly (Vaseline), and when it re-hardens, coat all areas where metal and wood contact each other and especially in the area inside the receiver cavity where gun oil can saturate the wood, causing "oil rot."
---------- Post added at 09:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 AM ----------
Right On. On guns that I want a very good finish that preserves and protects, I use BriWax (available in ACE Hardware in the US). It is "British Museum Wax" used on the finest antique furniture in the world's best museums. You will be very pleased with the results.Quote:
Originally Posted by 13Echo
He showed three pictures of percussion rifle locks recovered from a New Orleans museum after the big hurricane immersed them in salt water: untreated was a ball of rust, waxed cold had some rust, waxed hot had no rust. It was impressive.
His argument against oil on the wood was that it darkens over time and can't be removed. If you want to preserve it in it's original state for the very long term (like a museum), he said wax is the answer. Linseed oil essentially turns into linoleum.
Well thank yall for the help and information! I'm working on the stocks now. They look good.
Bob, I'm intrigued with the museum curator's experience from Hurricane Katrina -- is there more to add to this?Quote:
Originally Posted by bob seijas
Also, I have some antique guns that I collected with my father as a kid in the '50s and '60s. We used BLO on them, and they turned chocolate brown in the intervening ~50 years. I'd be interested in your (and others) insights:
(BTW, I'm not promoting or adhering to the following, just commenting)
1) True, the linseed oil does turn to a form of linoleum (but not exactly the same thing -- BLO is much softer).
2) I've had no problem removing the old BLO (using alcohol or ammonia or paint stripper),
3) There is a nice patina under the wood after the BLO has been removed,
4) Giving wood a good soaking in BLO "feeds" the wood, keeping wood fibers less resistant to rot. Hard-rubbing it all off with a terry-cloth towel, heating the surface with friction seems to make the remaining BLO much "harder" and "drier", with no surface residue, leaving it ready for a Tung Oil treatment.
5) Tung Oil gives a harder, more durable finish than BLO, and doesn't seem to darken with age,
6) I've used wax as a final finish, but never as a sole finish as it is softer (less durable) than Tung Oil.
7) Treating the wood/metal interface with a soft wax substance prevents metal (i.e. barrels and screws, etc. ) from rusting where they contact wood, and protects wood from "oil rot". Enfield Armourers concocted a 50/50 potion of Mineral Jelly & Beeswax and US gunners apparently used Gunny Paste (Linseed, Turpentine, & Beeswax) for this. (I've found candlewax seems to be a decent substitute for beeswax)
8) Never tried the hot wax approach (but would be interested in learning more)
Mates, please chime in with your thoughts -- there's a lot to be learned here. Some people are purists about using the original processes; others are looking 100 years forward for after-effects; and still other's are looking for the "best" durability & aesthetics.
Wood treated with plain or raw linseed oil can become oil soaked and soft with too much oil that does not ever seem to "dry.". This is frequently seen in military rifles after decades of service with gallons of oil slopped on the stock. However I have an 1868 and an 1884 Springfield and an 1898 Krag that likely never saw BLO that have, after a hundred years or more, produced a hard, dry finish so it can happen. Applying BLO like described earlier will not make a soft, oil soaked stock and will produce a decent finish. Linseed oil will also darken with time and eventually produce the dark colored, almost red, stocks characteristic of Springfield rifles. Many consider this desirable in one of the old soldiers. Tung will make for a harder, slightly more water resistant finish and will not darken the wood like linseed oil but can become somewhat yellow with age.
By the way the major ingredient in Linoleum is Linseed oil. Real linoleum is no longer made with various plastics taking over the market.
Dave Arnold, the Preservationist, is one of the top men in the field... he was emphatic that "wood is not hungry or thirsty" and does not need "feeding." We wrote up his lecture at the 2005 GCA Convention in the Summer 2006 Journal. He said that if you are trying to duplicate the finish on a modern military arm, go ahead and use it, but it is very bad for long term preservation. If there is a way to link it here, I would provide a copy, it's in pdf format. The article contains the photos of the Katrina locks previously mentioned.
Your curator is correct, wood does not "need" feeding, however, it does need protecting with some kind of finish. Raw, unprotected wood will deteriorate and looks awful. Even axe handles get some kind of finish. Soaking wood with raw linseed, or even boiled linseed oil or tung for that matter is not necessary, and certainly not desirable. Careful application of the same oils, however, will result in a decent looking finish that enhances the appearance of the wood and offers a degree of protection from the elements. Once this is achieved wax away till your heart is content for that extra level of ultimate protection. I doubt if even your curator would think of wax as the only finish needed for a stock. I would also be curious how well the wax would stand up to actual field use. It certainly works well for museum pieces.
Bob, thank you for the reference to Dave Arnold's article from GCA. Quite interesting. His perspective is from the museum collector, which give a very unique perspective, a set of insights some of which seem universal, and some which, to my mind, are suited for hermetically sealed museum cases. For those interested, I created a download link: (these links work on my computer, if anyone has a problem, let me know.)Quote:
Originally Posted by bob seijas
http://www.trusting1.com/Museum_Rest...vid_Arnold.pdf
Dave Arnold is a "museum curator" and takes a position that the gun will never be shot in the future. For many of us, both being able to shoot the gun and keeping it in fine condition for the future is important. His insights on humidity are important. For an example, for anyone living in a wooden house, just watch how fast the wood weathers on the south side (exposed to sun & rain = constant expansion & contraction) versus the north side. Every crack in the wood is a place for water, bugs, bacteria, and fungus/mold to start their attack on wood. I kept one gun in a closet where it got no ventilation all summer, and in the fall when I pulled it out, it was covered with white mold -- never will I do that again! (Dark, warm, humid places are ideal breeding grounds for fungi/mold spores, which attack wood mercilessly.)
Also, I have written a piece on historic gun restoration about what I've learned, which applies especially to Enfields, but is applicable to most any military rifle or carbine. (please don't take my word as the Gospel, but just as a reference point for discussion.) It can be downloaded as well:
http://www.trusting1.com/Laws___Prin...ation_V1.2.pdf
I'm always interested in any "discoveries" or proofs of one approach versus another.
Regarding the "Feeding" of wood, I would take the position that wood does need "feeding" especially to keep the bacteria, fungus, and insects out of wood. Wood that is "starved" becomes the breeding ground for all kinds of problems. Having restored old (200 years and older) houses, antique boats (50 years old), and old guns (250 years old), I have had a little experience in this area. Some woods, like teak, have natural oils and toxins that make it very resistant to rot. The sap in pine also retards rot, but doesn't make it rot proof. Walnut contains a natural toxin that retards rot; but many woods used in historic firearms, like maple, birch, and beech, are highly susceptible to rot, which is a destruction of the wood fibre. Rot can be the result of the wood becoming too dry (put it in the sun for a long time and watch the wood fibres break-down), or in the water ( and watch fungi and bacteria eat away at it,) and on and on. That's why we paint or stain exterior woodwork on homes (and oil-based paint is still better than latex) and why we use pine as an exterior wood (because the sap resins resist insects, fungi, and bacteria.) Oils in wood keep the fibres flexible, enabling them to bend when impacted or resist internal cracking when subjected to changes in temperature and humidity. (But over-soaking with too much oil that never dries, such as RLO, is not good either, and gun oil in wood can soften interiors adjacent to receivers, causing compression damage from recoil)
"Feeding" the wood fills hollow wood cells with oils, thus repelling water and helping the wood resist fungus, bacteria, and little insects. Enfields, Springfields, and M-1s were originally dipped in warm linseed oil. Enfields were put in a tank of RLO for 20 hours (see MKL video) RLO was used originally, but later BLO was found to be better because the molecules "polymerized" -- meaning they became elongated/connected and dried better. M-1s, from what I understand from the CMP website, were then treated with Tung Oil, which is a better water repellant and anti-fungal. (Personally, if I was to subject a wooden stocked rifle to combat conditions in a jungle, I'd use one of the deck oils used on wooden boats, which are very water repellant and fungal retardant and durable. But few of us are fighting in the jungles of Southeast Asia anymore, thank God.)
As mentioned in earlier posts, the idea of "Enfield Armourer's wax" or "Gunny Paste" to treat areas where gun oil can saturate the wood or wood can interact with metal causing rust is just another approach to 'feeding" wood. The basis of the "gunny paste" formulation goes back at least into the 1800s when beeswax, turpentine, and linseed oil was used as furniture polish.
Anyone who has ever tried to remove an old butt plate screw knows that steel screws can rust from their contact with wood, and be almost impossible to remove. Treating them with the "Enfield Armourer's wax" solves this problem. Enfield Armourer, Captain Laidler, admonishes those who remove the grease from barrels in contact with wood because wood will cause a barrel to pit where it contacts wood, especially in high humidity environments.
The idea of "feeding" wood didn't originate with museums, it came from experience in the field of action -- on the battlefield and on the oceans -- from hard-nosed practionners those who had to survive in harsh and hostile environments. Use of linseed oil on wood stock goes back 100s of years, and I know of no wood that was damaged by this practice, and, to the contrary, I know or have owned many guns and boats that survived because of oil treatment to the wood.
Regarding wax, I am a great fan of wax, especially those that use a combination of beeswax and carnauba wax. Wax is great for preserving metal where the bluing has worn off. On wood, wax should never be used on raw wood -- it gets into the pores and cannot be removed. Wax is best over a good, hardened finish -- such as Tung Oil or varnish. From years of experience I've found it keeps varnish fresh, resistant to oxidation, and cracking.
------ If there is any interest, we can start a new thread just on these issues.
Thanks everybody for the help and ideas!! I've been working on the wood and it is looking alot better! Thanks again for the help!
I have 5,000 stocks all sitting in a Barn with air and weather getting to them. The BLO that is on them and "STAIN" from WWII has held up well. They clean easy also and go right back to the bare wood. Not sure about some of what I am hearing in this thread and sure much of it is just made up from rumors. I have 20 years of hands on and always amazed at some of the stuff IO hear. Rick B
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Why do you got 5,000 stocks?? Are you selling them?
Read '' The Legend of Barnwood'' up in the sticky threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by kruffe
Rick is The Man on stocks. After years of hard work, he found "The Barn" and bought what was left. Although that was mostly wood that was rejected by previous collectors, Rick is a repair expert and will get the most out of them. Yes, he sells them.
I used minwax tung oil finish on my rifle I shoot in matches. It's easy to work with. Applied correctly it will not be glossy.
It does appear to have more of a sheen than 100% tung oil.
The problem with the cmp new stock finish is its only a very light sprayed on finish. From Mark Johnson's of the CMP own words.
It's a sprayed on stain/finish to even out and match up the wood.
I personally found the cmp finish to keep any other finish from soaking in. Good thing is the cmp finish is very thin and I was able to sand the finish out with out much wood loss.
I have a few unfinished cmp stocks I used walnut and red mahogany mix then 100% pure tung oil.
I apply as directed. I let tung oil dry or cure for no less than 5 days between coats. Once I get 4-6 coats I will use 600 grit cloth and tung oil and wet sand it. I love the smooth finish this creates.
My last new wood stock was a bugger and the front hand guard just did not take the stain well. Blotchy, owell it's a match gun and will get used and after handling it won't show as much. I'm no wood finisher but after getting some prices locally on stock finishing ( mind you these are standard walnut stocks under 200$) I said for that price I can afford to ruin a few.
Mac1911 -- that's good advice and really works well on stocks. First use pure Tung Oil, which should also be applied to the interior in all areas. After the first coat sets, I switch to the Minwax Tung Oil Finish for the last 2 or 3 exterior coats. Minwax, I believe, has a little bit of varnish mixed in to keep the finish hard and resilient. Then apply a 50/50 mixture of beeswax and mineral jelly (mixed in a double boiler) to all areas where metal and wood contact each other to prevent rust to the metal and gun oil from seeping into the wood.
Two things I've found (after years of working on antique furniture and guns)
1) is to stay away from any type of sandpaper and use fine grades of steel wool instead. Steel wool is like a fine razor blade "planing" the wood smooth, whereas sandpaper "gouges" the wood. Using steel wool with oil produces a super-smooth finish.
2) After the exterior Tung Oil finish sets for several days, then apply a coat of good furniture wax (I use Briwax available at Ace Hardware) applied with 0000 steel wool for both added protection and to even the lustre to a soft glow.
How many Garand owners does it take to refinish a stock?
100
One to refinish the stock and ninety-nine to stand around and say, "I can do that better!"
(Adapted from a guitarist's joke)
Bob