More finds from the British army dump

Hi all

Just sharing some more finds from the British army dump site myself and my group have been digging. The landowner is a great guy and understands why we ask to dig on his land, despite the fact he thinks most of it is rusty crap!

These represent some of the more unusual finds from the dump site, along with some items we're sick of the sights of.........like the Sten parts, of which there are literally hundreds strewn throughout the dump site.

Of interest are the 303 inspection rounds and 30cal drill. Vickers muzzle booster.... Vickers tripod elevation wheel...... trigger gauges. ...... barrel brushes...... Vickers barrel protector..... PIAT rear sights...... PIAT sears and triggers (pic with the red background) .... BESA trigger...... BESA 15mm ammo boxes...... Browning Mk 1 water chests ........ Butt plates from numerous rifles...... Remains of stocks from Mk 5 Sten .... Mk 1 Sten stock and flash hider ...... Sten trigger covers...... Lee-Enfield water bottles......

The list goes on and on.

Hope you like the finds.

RRPG

Hopefully said owner doesn't realize the amount of scrap brass he has under his field. Today it's at $1.71 U.S per lb.

SHHHHHH! Don't tell him!

:D

Looks like the huge mass dumping that took place when the Ordnance depot part of Knook Camp closed down in the early 60's to move to somewhere else and the Infantry part went to Battlesbury. They came over and asked if we wanted zillions of bits of Bren woodwork - that turned out to be Boys rifle pistol and rear hand grips! So into the ground they went too!

Incidentally, the spoon billed Mk1 Sten 'muzzle depressor' (last picture) was described as '…..a complete frill, if not a total fraud which served no useful purpose and shall be deleted from production at the first opportunity…..'. So they were only used on the first, early production and afterwards were deleted from production or cut-off. To test whether a Sten REALLY needed a muzzle depressor we did a scientific experiment. We took my little 12 year old boy Robert and let him fire so much ammunition on automatic/bursts (that he was fed-up by the end of the day) through two tethered Stens to see whether a little 12 year old needed a muzzle depressor. He didn't. On that scientific basis, after a days jolly using up the time-expired spare ammunition, we agreed with the 1941 Ordnance Board and Newtons 3rd law of motion and concluded that if a 12 year old didn't need a muzzle depressor, then nor did a grown 12 stone man!

Won't be long before someone brings up that old chest nut about 25 Spitfires being buried in the jungle still in their crates since WW2 :lol::lol::madsmile:

Maybe he has them right there Gil? Out in that dump?

Thanks Peter. Very interesting :) Shame I can't go digging at Knook camp! :)

Gil - Someone contacted two years ago and told me he knew where there were 40 Merlin engines buried in Birmingham. After replying with a modicum of scepticism, (only thinly veiled), I found it no surprise at all that he replied stating he would dig them up himself and didn't need our help after all. Curiously, I have seen nothing on the news about the engines being recovered so I presume he is still in the planning stage.

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Originally Posted by RRPG

40 Merlin engines buried

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I'm not too sure how good anything would be though. The Browning .303 gun they recovered worked passably, but I'd rather have a new 0 time engine out of a crate. I'm sure RRPG, you've seen the footage of the (BMW) I think it was that was dug up complete...doubt they'll just change the plugs and add fuel and kick it once to start...your stuff if way more realistic. I find most of that stuff to be balloon juice anywayzzz.

Jim,
To be fair mate, 70 odd years on, they have survived miraculously, what type of soil were they in, or was it just sand?

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

what type of soil were they in, or was it just sand?

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Couldn't say. The motorcycle either, it was forest floor. I was just looking at pics of a Stormovic that was brought up from a lake bottom and is now flying...

Just noticed that the picture of the 303 inspection rounds and 30cal drill isn't there. I shall upload it again now. Apologies for not noticing it was missing earlier :)

How typical of governmental waste. Pretty nice adventure for you though. Great thread.

It is a great site and their loss is our gain I suppose.

Just to put it into context, those 303 inspection rounds were a small part of the 2000 that were recovered from one spot.

And every Enfield collector out there would love to have at least one. Government solution dig a hole & bury it. Keep the photos coming.

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Originally Posted by RRPG

2000 that were recovered from one spot.

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That would be a nice find. We had someone here do that 30 years back with M2 drill rounds. They pulled the bullets and tumbles and packaged them and sold every single one to us to shoot. The empties they sold for scrap and made back their investment plus and the bullets were just plain gold...everyone shot some of those. I expect you'll be moving these as is though...

let use know if you decide to sell off some of these wonderful finds keep up the good work an thank you so much for sharing:thup::thup::thup::thup::thup:

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

And every Enfield collector out there would love to have at least one. Government solution dig a hole & bury it. Keep the photos coming.

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I'm repeating myself here, but an ex-Bootneck I worked with told me that on their return journey to Sydney they pushed fully serviceable, operational US-made Lend-Lease aircraft off the deck of H.M aircraft carrier in which he served and into the Tasman when the Japanese surrendered at the end of WWII. Another WWII veteran who was on some island in the South Pacific (New Britain???) when the war ended told me that the USAAF solution to 'surplus to needs' fighters on the island was to back them up to a ditch on the side of the runway and then run them over and into the ditch with a bulldozer.

Crated, serviceable Spitfires buried in Burma? Not bloody likely.

mmppres - I am afraid I never sell anything I recover. Being chairman of the WW2 Relic Retrieval & Preservation Group it is one of our group's guiding principles. All relics are recovered and preserved, not recovered and listed on e-bay! :) :) I do, however, sometimes trade items for things that would compliment my collection. If there is something that has taken your eye, drop me a PM and we can see if we can work out a trade.

Paul S - Every base in England has a story attached to it involving whole aircraft/vehicles/weapons/bombs being dumped in a large pit and buried, in or out of crates. In the 70 years since the end of the war, there is not one documented case of such a dump being discovered. I wait for the day one is, but won't hold my breath..... :)

Now...........that reminds me, of two "fully equipped" L/R buried in the sand in Iraq...one day someone, who has the Grid Reference tatooed on his back will go forth and locate said starred items.............just like Kevin Costner and Waterworld :wave::thup:

RRPG i fully understand that an some day hope to see the collection in more than pictures. about the only real collectable thing i have is a few of these great chest an my smle's thanks for finding the items an posting them Mike
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cwszuntd-1.jpg

Those are great chests! Love 'em :)

Yes going to re-finish one for my self just got to get all info like paint color an make rack for inside. sold a few to some nice people on this site an still have a few. will make separate post on the project.

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Originally Posted by RRPG

mmppres - I am afraid I never sell anything I recover. Being chairman of the WW2 Relic Retrieval & Preservation Group it is one of our group's guiding principles. All relics are recovered and preserved, not recovered and listed on e-bay! :) :)

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In principle I agree completely with the stance, but on the other hand - when you have 2000 of something, I would respectfully suggest that perhaps 1900 of those somethings might be equally appreciated in the hands of fellow enthusiasts across the globe who may not otherwise have access to them. :)

It could help defray some of the costs of your worthy undertakings, without compromising the overall principles of not doing it all for profit.

I sat on this for a week or so Colonel - and RPG - deep in thought especially at your last sentence Colonel. I think that you might be just slightly mistaken about the group or certainly some individuals in the group not disposing of at least some of these finds........ Maybe not for profit or gain or even to raise a few ££ for the groups undoubted expenses such as tea and coffee and a cake during the day (a worthy reason if ever I was asked an opinion I'd say). But the fact is that some of these remains HAVE found their way onto Ebay.

And I entirely agree. But even though it's a good reason and nobody (?) would disagree it's injudicious to say that they are not disposed of......

It is both worrying and disconcerting that some of these items have found their way on to ebay. I for one can be sure that it is certainly not any members of my group. This does open up the question though of who is selling them. It does perhaps indicate that the site has been plundered by black diggers, people who think nothing of the history behind an item, but think everything of the money they can make. To me these people are the scum of the earth, digging without permission and putting all legal diggers in a bad light. There is currently a major operation in England to crack down on illegal diggers, which I hope at least deters people from digging illegally.

My stance of not selling anything will stand for as long as I draw breath. I am not in this for the money, I am in it for the history. The more history I can preserve for future generations the better.

This isn't to say that everything I find stays in my collection. There are a small number of relics, of which I have multiple examples, that I will trade with other collectors to further enhance their and my collections. What happens to them after the trade has taken place I cannot control. However, if this trading leads to the preservation of other relics, it sits well with me.

Living by the philosophy of recovering and preserving history is central to what I do. I have no costs I am not prepared to cover myself during my digs and displays at military shows, schools and other events. Indeed, a show I am due to display at in the future attracted some strange comments from the organisers when I pointed out I was not selling anything. They seemed to have never come across someone who displays WW2 items for the love of the history, rather than the love of profit!

Colonel Enfield, if you want a bag full of Kerr sling buckles you are welcome to them. To be honest, cleaning 50kg of the flipping things is far harder work than I imagined!! :)

I personally think that you are being a bit harsh RPG. While I can see your point (but barely if you want the truth.......) I, personally speaking, don't find anything in the least bit unsavoury by disposing of some of the stuff you find. It's not as if it is monetarily valuable. If I was blunt, but HONESTLY blunt, its only value is its intrinsic value to a small group of people. And if you didn't dig it up, it'd remain there for ever (?) and eventually rot out.

I feel that by letting small amounts go to collectors of this stuff who are going to look after it, show it, analyse it, discuss it etc etc......, you know the sort of thing I mean for a small return to cover group costs and expenses and hot tea and coffee on the cold days - and cold pop on the hot days of course then I say GOOD ON YOU. And there's something else too while we're talking 'profit'. To be brutally honest and frank again, always the best policy, you're never EVER going to be either rich or in profit selling this stuff.........(just an opinion of course.

There's something quite romantic about seeing a SMLE bayonet dug up from an old training area slit trench on Salisbury Plain laying next to a pristine example on display

And there's something else quite savoury and honest about a few of these things going onto that auction site. Remember that when you do put some of these things on there, your dealings are transparent and honest too. Just my view

While I was at Warminster we had a young lady who worked as an admin wallah somewhere whose husband and pals used to dig up all manner of badges, buckles, bayonets, knives and forks (yes, some with Army number stamped in too etc etc. We used to identify loads of interesting (?) stuff for them (and on the odd occasion misusing our positions to send them in the right direction to identify the former owner/loser too).

Maybe I could summarise and suggest that it ought to be your little group honestly disposing of some of this stuff instead of the shysters. Having said that, I wonder if anyone vehemently disagrees with what I have said. Don't be shy......, I've never taken offence before and won't be starting now!!!!!!!!!

I feel some of the item that are in great numbers be sold in an appropriate auction manner that would be accessible to all who would enjoy an take care fo the items the money would go back to the safe up keep of the rare items that would be saved.

I do see your point Peter, and and agree I am never going to be rich from selling ground dug items. You have provoked some thought on my part, especially with regards items I find in large quantities, such as the Kerr sling buckles. However, I still come back to the same principal, one that I have held for as long as I have dug relics. Principles are, as I am sure you'll agree, extremely difficult to change as they become part of you. Suddenly selling stuff after 20 years of not doing so would not be easy.

I have already conceded that I do sometimes trade items so, if anyone wants a bag full of Kerr sling buckles to clean and play with, drop me a PM and we will set up a trade.

Best I can do! I hope you see why.

RRPG

It is an interesting hobby and one never knows what they might find. You could stumble upon a ancient treasure horde.

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Originally Posted by Trap4570

You could stumble upon a ancient treasure horde.

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Some of us would argue he already has...

Thank you for the kind offer RRPG - alas, I must respectfully decline; my interest is not generally in uniforms so I wouldn't get nearly enough out of the buckles to be comfortable taking you up on the offer.

I understand where you're coming from regarding selling items you've recovered, and as Mr Laidler says, I personally don't think there's anything wrong with selling recovered items to cover expenses (even if it's just coffee money).

I'm also OK with stuff being recovered and sold for commercial reasons, too in some cases - particularly such as the case with IMA.

There's an unbelievable amount of stuff recovered by them that's now in the hands of collectors and enthusiasts that simply wouldn't be available otherwise. All those muskets, Sniders and Martinis are now being restored, appreciated, and even shot again because they salvaged all that stuff from Nepal, brought it back to the US and made it available for sale.

Imagine if the folks from IMA had decided not to sell any of it, but rather put it in a museum (and probably not a "big" museum like the Smithsonian or the Imperial War Museum)? There'd be a lot of frustrated military history enthusiasts out there lamenting the fact that someone had acquired literal tonnes of desirable antique military rifles and was just sitting on them, or not doing them justice by putting them on display where only a small(ish) number of people could see them.

Obviously that's a different kettle of fish to the work you and your group is doing, and I understand your stance on wanting to preserve history rather than sell it, but I'd also respectfully point out that you're not salvaging artefacts from the Titanic or a battlefield so I don't think you're going to face a backlash from historians, the collecting community, or indeed any other sensible person for making some of the "duplicate" finds available to upstanding people for a nominal amount, for the right reasons.

Hypothetically speaking, if I salvaged 2,000 .303 dummy rounds then my inclination would be to select perhaps the best 200-250 for collection/display and then make the remaining 1,750 or so available to approved collectors and enthusiasts (eg people I knew personally, were vouched for by people I knew personally, or were members of recognised historical societies/musuems) for a nominal sum - perhaps $1 each. The money from that would be returned to funding the salvage work as $1,750 buys a lot of coffee and cake, or printer cartridge ink, or postage stamps, or any of the other ancillary expenses such a worthy endeavour must sadly endure.

There's a big difference between defraying costs or funding further aspects of a worthy project, and putting a bunch of stuff on internet auction sites to see how quickly you can fill a Scrooge McDuck Money Bin to go swimming in. :p

A thought... Don't sell the duplicates - pass them on to people who have paid a mutually agreed sum to a charity of your choice.

I do see your points and they do have validity. However, this is like asking a tiger to not be striped any more! This is something ingrained in me that will just not change. I see diggers all over the world recovering WW2 relics from battlefields and, like me, old airbases and army camps, and then selling what they find. I find this quite quite distasteful.

If I take the time, (sometimes months), to research a site, find the landowner and then dig it, the last thing on my mind is the sale of anything I find. I want the history, not the relic, but they tend to come together! As a consequence, trading is just about acceptable to me, but sale is not. That's just the way it is I'm afraid.

Many thanks for your input, all of you, but I will not be selling anything. If however, you fancy trading me, then I am sure something could be arranged.

:) :) :)

RRPG