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a buddy called me last weekend and offered me a 1903 springfield that he had picked up really cheap at a local auction. i went over and this is what he pulled out of the rifle case. haven't had time to detail clean it, but i slipped out to the range today and put it through its paces. it performed flawlessly with amazing accuracy!
Very very nice!
this is like Deja Vu. Two weeks I got a call from a guy telling me he found a Marine Match rifle. So I went up to look at it. It was IDENTICAL to this one. Serial was in the 800k range buried in the Marine serials in the SRS. Stock and handguard had NM drawing numbers and the last four of the serial stamped just like this, same position. The bolt was parked, with a prior electropenciled number on it, then ground down, and the current serial electropenciled. Just like this one. It had a 11/42 barrel which is a common replacement barrel on Marine rifles. Globe front sight and lyman 48 rear. I mean other than the serials they were identical. The only difference this one's receiver had been drilled and tapped. It was in the Marine pattern on the receiver but the quality was not as nice as I've seen on the snipers.
But then you look at this one. There have been several Marine snipers found in the 1.46 range, which would have been NM team rifles before that. It has a B2 bolt which is common in Marine Rebuilds. You can see a prior 3 something serial, parked over, then ground, and the new serial on it. 7/42 barrel which I'm curious if it has vice marks on it. And I've heard people speculate that the star is a Philadelphia Depot Star.
The weird thing is, the rails and bolts are not polished like a match rifle. But the pad is behind the rear sight. And I almost bet if you open up that bolt, that flat part of the receiver has a punch mark like the match rifles have.
As far as I know the Marines transitioned to the Garands for Camp Perry when the National Matches started back up after WWII. And from the paperwork it sounds like the majority of the team rifles before the war were probably mostly used up in the Sniper Program. And they remained snipers after the war and were not converted back to team or service rifles.
So what the heck is this? It's so weird that I've seen two identical with so many Marine traits. I mean mirror images of each other. It makes me wonder if they didn't build some after the war for Marine or divisional matches or something? Or the same commercial gunsmith got his hands on some Marine 1903's and built match rifles out of them with parts.
I don't know what they are. But they are identical. lol
Funny you say this. I was showing this to a friend over the weekend and he too said that it was a USMC National Match rifle. his "dead giveaway" was the EP renumbered bolt, extra hatcher hole on the left side of the receiver, and the drawing numbers/serials on the wood. further research is in my future!
I bet if you look at your hatcher hole it's going to be crudely drilled. As your serial should have been the tail end of the ones not factory drilled. And your bolt was at one time for sure a Marine bolt, being a B2 with a serial number parked over. But both Match rifles and Marine rifles use electropencil to mark bolts in that spot. So it could be possible a gunsmith picked up a Marine bolt, ground a bare spot afer refinishing it and then electropenciled a new serial. Do I think that is what happened, I don't. But it is possible. But my honest gut opinion is, that receiver is Marine too. Just because Marine receivers have been found around that range.
I have 1459600 and it was a Marine match rifle at one time too. That is why I find this one so interesting because I've really studied this block of serials. A 7/42 SA is not a common Marine barrel replacement but we have speculated some might have been. Do you know how to look for Marine vice marks on the barrel? I would take that handguard off and look for vice marks. If you don't know what they are, I can post a pic for you.
And I bet your receiver rail has a punch mark on it. They find these punch marks on match rifles, and I've seen a few on service rifles too. But every match rifle I've seen has had one. But do you have a punch mark on your rail? It might be deeper because mine is polished. It can be stamped about anywhere on the rail just like this that I circled. But I bet it has it.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...n75af3x1-1.jpg
indeed it does have the punch mark on the rail. the 2nd hatcher hole was crudely drilled. i just popped the hand guard off and sure enough, there are some vice marks on the barrel that were parkerized over. they are located just in front of the rear sight sleeve. I also forgot to mention that there is a small area on the toe of the buttplate that is hand stippled.
the rest of the story on this rifle is that it came from a vet who was in Japan during the occupation. he apparently sent home a bunch of unissued Japanese and US field gear and Japanese rifles. he kept all of it along with this rifle in a large trunk for over 60 years. He was later employed at Letterkeny Army Depot here in PA. when he passed away, his kids found this stuff and sent it to auction where it all sold for pennies on the dollar.
Two weeks ago if you showed me this, I would have been like it's a former Marine rifle that a civilian gunsmith worked over. But now there are two that are identical in everyway. And both are full of Marine traits. It just can't be a coincidence.
I might try to see if I can pick that other up. If I do, I will post pics. Then you can see what I'm saying on how it's like Deja Vu. lol
Welcome to the forum by the way and Semper Fi. :)
Semper Fi! thanks so much for the info, I am SUPER happy to have this rifle! If you get the other one you spoke of, please do post up some pics as i would love to see them!
Great rifle you've bought, but Steven already told you most on it! I would love to have such a piece in my collection. Looking forward to additional pictures of it - and if you ever decide to part with it, let me know! :)
Two questions to the rifle, are the screws of the triggerguard staked, and the screw holes of the magazine guard shortened? And does it now belong to you, since you only said a friend of yours picked it up locally.
As we're by the details, I loved the fact that it still has the dished knob for the windage adjustment!
Interesting you should bring this up - I had #1489912 until a couple of years ago. It was sold to me as a "National Match" rifle, which is wasn't (I paid $750, so I didn't pay "National Match" prices!! :) )
It had a 6-42 barrel and was mounted in a Type C National Match stock with a DAL stamp and the serial number of the rifle it had been mounted, stamped below, 1402310. It had the "star" stamped on the barrel just below the date, as on the OP's example. It also had a BF 46 replacement bolt with the serial number etched on the top of the "body".
I checked with John Beard and he also identified it as a USMC target rifle. I had to sell it to buy a NM rifle 2-3 years back. Hated to see it go - my only USMC rifle, to date. Pictures below:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...standard-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...standard-2.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...standard-3.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...standard-4.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...standard-5.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...standard-6.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...standard-7.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...standard-8.jpg
Well and look at this. One thing I have been studying is the electropencil writing characteristics on Marine rifles. To me it looks like the same guy electropenciled both rifles. And I bet if I threw in a pic of the other rifle I found it would be very similar too.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tzuyyeao-1.jpg
Ok I went and picked up that rifle that I spoke about earlier. There are subtle differences, but not much. It's still very much the same style. The main difference this one doesn't have the Philly Star. And I was thinking it had a drawing number handguard, but it doesn't. It has the WWII replacement style with the straight cut, but I know the Marines received that style handguard as that is the style they used on the snipers. It also has a lyman front sight instead of the globe. But anyways little differences, but I think you will see why I said it was like Deja Vu though.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ou8td30s-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ggscnjed-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5bjcscjt-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hxqcvatm-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...voiymhf7-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...o96u8cwd-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...dxdegyus-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...igksius3-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...jw40ljuf-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8f7ufxaq-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...urqkxhmy-1.jpg
Beautiful rifles, Steven ...makes me pine for the one that I sold! :(
nice bunch of rifles and nice find on the OPs,, my only comments....the front sight on Steves rifle was made for the 1903A3, and didnt come out until the 1950s, the Lyman sight on the OPS rifle is a replacement, it should have a longer slide, and deaper base, like the one pictured on Steve,s rifle.
---------- Post added at 07:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 AM ----------
i have 885686 USMC rifle with an 11-41 barrel..
My gut feeling on these. I think these were never made for any official matches and probably not even for the teams, but maybe they just built them from parts laying around from the old team rifle days for recreational target shooting or something like that.
They really look like they were assembled from any and all parts they could scrounge up and make work. And I do imagine these were built after the Korean war timeframe.
They say that the 1903 Snipers started to be sold as surplus starting in 1954 to Officers. Maybe with liquidating all the snipers, they got rid of all the parts and pieces they had saved to keep those rifles going and built these match rifles with those spare parts? That would honestly be my best guess.
I guess it's hard saying, but that would make the most sense to me. But it's just very neat that there is so many similarities.
I would agree they were fab'd up from whatever parts were left in the armory at the time given the variations that are shown here. However, I shot matches while I was in the Marine Corps and I know that we would always mark our rifles with tape which had our name on it along with our service number on the butt. This rifle has tape residue in that very same position.
That being said, I find it very hard to believe that the Marine a corps would just assemble rifles for no reason at all. In the old days when the USMC had matches they often awarded the winner with a prize rifle. Perhaps that is what purpose these rifles served. I will say that I am in the process of cleaning this rifle up and the bore was full of Cosmo and had no evidence of being fired. I put a few rounds through it and it shot very well.
OK so i really hate to ask this but I'm out of my element on this one. I plan on giving this rifle to one of my boys when they are of age and i don't ever plan on selling it. I picked this up for $700 from a very good friend and I'm sure he made money on it, but i would like to know how much this rifle is worth. If its worth far ore than i paid, i need to go back to my friend and give him some more cash to make up for it as neither one of us knew what this rifle is when we struck the deal. I am a big believer in what goes around comes around and i want to make things fair. thanks for any and all help!!
I would say considerably more, but admit I don't have a handle on USMC M1903 prices.
If you offered it for $1,000, I and many others, would jump on it. Its drilled and tapped, but with the whole USMC thing...
Mike
That would be an honorable thing to do if that rifle was valued at way more then you paid and you plan on selling it to make a profit and it was a real good friend. I have done that myself after I sold a rifle for a lot more then I paid to a good friend for it. But here is another thought. Both of you agreed on the price and you did not buy it to sell it to make money but plan on giving it to your son. And you did mention he probably made money on it already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marines55
I guess it just sounds like a normal buy/sell transaction to me in that sometimes the gun is worth more then you paid and some times it isn't. We all probably have sold rifles for less then they were worth because we didn't know the true value of it. It is part of the collecting world, Ray
Could someone please post a picture of a Hatcher hole? I keep reading about it, but have never seen a picture of one.
Thank you for making honour and integrity the foundation of your business dealings. All to often I hear of people who got a deal for a "steal" and being proud of the way they took advantage of the other guy. Your commitment to dealing with people in the highest standard is what actually helps business thrive. While I've seen some pretty crooked dealing in business in my career, I've also witnessed multi-million dollar deals done on a hand-shake; and it's the latter that creates more value.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marines55
In a recent study I participated in that analyzed multi-billion dollar energy industry projects, the fair-dealing executives who worked cooperatively and in a trustworthy fashion were 8 times more likely to finish their projects on-time, and on-budget than their tough-dealing, dog-eat-dog counterparts (yes, the bad guys finished last!).
Keep up the spirit of fair play, it's the right way and the best way. Your friend can always reject your "fair-deal" offer and instead accept an offer for you to buy him a beer, and call that a "fair-deal." A great friendship is invaluable, and should never be sacrificed for a few bucks. The cost of the money might hurt for a little while, but the loss of a friendship burns forever.
This is a hatcher hole. Serials made after 1936 were factory drilled. This is from the target rifle earlier. Most Marine Hatchers are crudely done.Quote:
Originally Posted by motocyclista
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hxqcvatm-1.jpg
Great descriptive photo of a typical crude looking Hatcher hole cplstevennorton.
motocyclista, this a later A3 factory drill he's talking about -
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nylrxg1b-1.jpg
This is a most interesting thread. Thanks to all. Hope we learn more.