Lithgow SMLE sporter

So I've picked up a 1941 No1 Mk3 SMLE made by Lithgow, that was sporterized in the 1950's for $190 OTD.
Pluses.
Not import marked
Not drilled and tapped
Barrel is still original length
Bolt numbered to the receiver
Barrel has some frosting but looks fine otherwise
As far as I can tell are the parts are Australian made.

Minuses
Upper hand guard missing
Lower fore stock was cut down.
remaining wood was sanded down and coated in polyurethane

Seems like a good candidate to restore.

Pictures
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2961-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2965-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2951-1.jpg



Rest of album
http://s1161.photobucket.com/user/jo...Login=1&page=1

Yup, good place to start. Not as hard to replace the missing pieces when the metal's good. Nice catch. That barrel might clean up when you shoot it.

I may ask again was there a special on varnish when bubba came onto that rifle as how many have we seen varnished up like a Rolls Royce car in the midday sun gads the glare:eek:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Yup, good place to start. Not as hard to replace the missing pieces when the metal's good. Nice catch. That barrel might clean up when you shoot it.

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Actually the barrel is a lot better after running about 15 rounds of Greek surplus (HXP 1976) through the rifle yesterday at the range. Shot at steel at 100 yards and went 14 for 15.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

I may ask again was there a special on varnish when bubba came onto that rifle as how many have we seen varnished up like a Rolls Royce car in the midday sun gads the glare:eek:

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probably was...

More is better...keep us infoed as you go?

Can you add the S/N and barrel date for the Lithgow Survey?

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Upper hand guard missing

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BRP has a selection of upper hand guards.

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Lower fore stock was cut down.

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That’s going to be the hardest part to find.

Apex gun parts has a good selection of No1 Mk3 parts and they’re conveniently located for you. You might be able to swing by and save a little on shipping.

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

Can you add the S/N and barrel date for the Lithgow Survey?

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Wili do. I'll be tearing the rifle down this weekend.

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Originally Posted by Vincent

BRP has a selection of upper hand guards.

That’s going to be the hardest part to find.

Apex gun parts has a good selection of No1 Mk3 parts and they’re conveniently located for you. You might be able to swing by and save a little on shipping.

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I can talk to them at the show this weekend.

Rifle has been stripped down and cleaned up. Took about 45 minutes to get 70 odd years of dirt and crud off the metal.

Posted the serial number/barrel date in the survey.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2975-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2971-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2976-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_2978-1.jpg

sorry, i'm still learning all of this stuff.

MA = lithgow
OA = orange arsenal

WA? wagga wagga?
BA? bathurst?

what other places and markings are there for australian made lee enfields?

nice collection of ammunition AFJ. you probably already know this, but over the last few months i have been looking, there has been a reasonable selection of australian made sight protectors, barrel bands and nose caps etc on australian e.bay. (.com.au)

henry.

Try Wellington, not wagga, FA - Forbes.
Thanks Jon, added.

As Henry Crun (Goon Show reference) used to say." Min, you just can't get the wood anymore!"

I know I won't make any friends here AFJon, but remember this. When you've scoured the nation for Lithgow this that and the other and paid astronomical prices for these special bits to complete your rifle, IT STILL WON'T BE ORIGINAL! Sure, it'll have all Australian bits but they ain't the original bits. Just like every(?) other Enfield in existence (except the new-in-wraps of course) it'll never be as it left the factory again.

Like changing the alternator or front shocks on your MGBGT

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Originally Posted by henry r

sorry, i'm still learning all of this stuff.

MA = lithgow
OA = orange arsenal

WA? wagga wagga?
BA? bathurst?

what other places and markings are there for australian made lee enfields?

nice collection of ammunition AFJ. you probably already know this, but over the last few months i have been looking, there has been a reasonable selection of australian made sight protectors, barrel bands and nose caps etc on australian e.bay. (.com.au)

henry.

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Henry,

Thanks.

I did not, but a company in the US (Springfield Sporters) has a good selection on the metal parts I needed for $66 shipped.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I know I won't make any friends here AFJon, but remember this. When you've scoured the nation for Lithgow this that and the other and paid astronomical prices for these special bits to complete your rifle, IT STILL WON'T BE ORIGINAL! Sure, it'll have all Australian bits but they ain't the original bits. Just like every(?) other Enfield in existence (except the new-in-wraps of course) it'll never be as it left the factory again.

Like changing the alternator or front shocks on your MGBGT

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True, but even my modest collection of US military rifles have been through a rebuild, or they were modified by the service they were assigned to; both my M-1 assigned to the US Navy and US Air Force were re-barreled to 7.62X51.

Probably the two biggest reasons for getting it was it was not import marked, and it was well priced. I'm looking at about $140 in part to restore the rifle, so I'm still ahead based on the asking prices for import marked SMLE are going for in my local area.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I know I won't make any friends here AFJon, but remember this. When you've scoured the nation for Lithgow this that and the other and paid astronomical prices for these special bits to complete your rifle, IT STILL WON'T BE ORIGINAL! Sure, it'll have all Australian bits but they ain't the original bits. Just like every(?) other Enfield in existence (except the new-in-wraps of course) it'll never be as it left the factory again.

Like changing the alternator or front shocks on your MGBGT

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Come on Peter. Every other rifle in existence?

Once there was more than one factory, and especially when the shooting started and every man and his dog was making parts, the chances of a "PURE" ANYTHING went right out the window.

It doesn't matter to an Ordnance / workshop system. If the parts are as per the current instructions and have met gauging and metallurgical testing, and the whole assembly passes function and firing tests, it is all Kosher.

OK, if you are lucky enough to find a Pre-WW1 Lithgow, still in its Mk 111 guise and with ALL Lithgow parts, it is a rarity of a significant order. Or, it may be a total bodge job. Once such a rifle entered service in Oz, it would have been bashed around the parade grounds and battlefields for the rest of its life.

Consider the number of SMLEs that went from Australia to Britain in WW1 (and 2). Quite a few were officially repaired, rebuilt, upgraded etc. during that fracas. If such an "officially, by the book" rifle was then further upgraded to "111*" status, it is still "authentic", especially if appropriately marked. Some of the Lithgow rifles returned to Australia, in the hands of Austrailan troops, who were issued or "acquired" them in North Africa.

If the Unit or Field Workshop armourers declared any of these "tourist" rifles to be in need of substantial repair work, they went to big "Base" workshops for a total rebuild.

They even swapped actions around to get "product" out the door.

Back to a Unit for a bit more thrashing.

Sure, many of us would like to have a mint, untouched 1912-marked Lithgow (with matching bayonet, of course), BUT these are SERVICE rifles. Just like SERVICE vehicles and even aircraft, they were used, abused and rebuilt. How many Lancaster bombers survived WW2 with their original engines, tyres and guns, let alone crews?

If you change the tracks and drive sprockets on your "mint' M-4 tank, is it any less authentic?

With Commonwealth gear, every component of any significance (even the wooden ones) were numbered.

If you are into US gear, where do you start?

Don't take it tooooo literally Homer. And I did quantify 'every' with the bracketed question mark. It's really the POINT that I was making! But BinO has his Armourers finger right on the button with his thread 16. It's borne out of a few years on the bench in an Armourers shop dealing with zillions of weapons of all types/sorts together with the strict gauging and acceptance limits of the OUT INSPECTION and Out Inspector. And it is HE who passes it fit for further service without a mere thought about who made what and when.

Just like the new Spax shocks and Lucas alternator on your MGB GT. And even the RAF Lancaster that runs on Shackleton wheels and tyres

My front hand guard arrived today looks to be NOS and as a bonus it is marked SLAZ...stinks like a dairy barn though:yikes:

"stinks like a dairy barn though"

I love the smell of creosote in the morning,....Smells like Lithgow!

(Ducks for cover!)

..........or the Council patching the road.:)

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Originally Posted by henry r

sorry, i'm still learning all of this stuff.

MA = lithgow
OA = orange arsenal

WA? wagga wagga?
BA? bathurst?

what other places and markings are there for australian made lee enfields?

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I may be wrong here as, despite living in Australia my interest leans more towards the British & Indian made Lee-Enfields, but my understanding is that MA is "Manufacturer, Australia" (as you note, Lithgow) with OA being "Orange, Australia". Ian Skennerton's book makes reference to MAO for Orange as well.

There should be a series of stars with letters inside them stamped along parts of the action as well - these are inspection marks from various stages of the manufacturing process.

The "A" stands for "Annexe". When the big dispersal happened in WW2 the "main" factory at Lithgow was mainly building Bren and Vickers guns, but retained the major forging plant. The "Bren' building was started just before the war and is/was a much more "modern" structure than the original factory which had a very "late 19th century" look about it.

Almost every "minor" part was farmed out to these "annexes", usually using machinery from Lithgow to get started.

Given the complexity of some components (the locking bolt with its weird-form, multi-start LH thread, or all of those screws with "Enfield Form" threads, there would have been a lot of head-scratching if Lithgow were not involved.

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

The "A" stands for "Annexe".

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All these years, and several spent right here. It took this long for me to find out that...tidbit.

Well the parts have arrived, so now to begin putting the rifle back together.

Well I've made some progress. Still need to do some fitting on the top front handguard.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_3024-1.jpg

Got everything reattached except the butt plate. For now I'm just planning on coats of RLO to finish the wood.

Pictures from our backyard with natural sunlight.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_3029-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_3026-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_3025-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_3028-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_3027-1.jpg

Don't forget when fitting the butt plate that there IS a correct way to fit one! First make sure that it fits fairly evenly over the rear face of the butt with no high spots and no wobble. Then make sure that there is an even gap around the edge where the wood butt must over hang the edge of the butt plate and not the other way round. About 1/16th to 3/32 or so would be perfect

Totaled up the costs of the parts and Shipping and that came to 220 USD. Now to haul it to the range and see what it will do.

The rifle and I spent several hours at the range this afternoon.
For August in Colorado it was freakishly cool with temperature on the range about 55 Fahrenheit or 13 Celsius. Ammunition was HXP 69 or 76. The bad news was I left my target stand at home so while I was routinely hitting the steel targets and 100 to 140 yards there no paper targets to share with you all.:o

AF Jon:

I'll bite.

I know about "prairie schooners" and "prairie oysters", but what is this "prairie submarine" you commanded?

My first duty assignment in the USAF was as a Minuteman II Missile Officer. When we were in the field our posts were underground hence the "Prairie Submarine" reference.

Factsheets : 341st MISSILE WING

Bing Images

Hey Folks, wondering if someone can give me an idea of what my 1941 Lithgow SMLE is worth? It does not have a magazine with it. Added some pics to give an idea.

ThanksAttachment 64942Attachment 64943Attachment 64944Attachment 64945Attachment 64946Attachment 64947Attachment 64948

What month and year is on the barrel?

Drilled and tapped so that is going to affect the value and all that varnish and JEM is that engraved on the receiver as well boy thats going to hurt the value as well as being sporterised would not expect much for it...............stripping and RLO to start

$120 maybe $130USD without a magazine and drilled and taped...less if the bore is pitted.

That said back to the purpose of my thread....The tan target was shot in the sporter configuration with the shots pulling of to the left

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_3076-1.jpg

The white target shows where it shots now. the left to right is quite good and these are low as I was working with a six o'clock hold...and the rear sight was pulled all the way back...:banghead:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...IMG_3077-1.jpg

Did you finish it with BLO?

No I used RLO.