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I have a Stock that inside the Nose on both side's it looks like it's coming apart. I have 3 others I keep in a Safe, but not here. I keep this one here at my house in my closet. Any ideas why is this happening cause I hate for it to get worse. This M1 has been here for around 8 months. I've had 3 Stocks for over a year in the same closet and there just fine. Thanks
Frank
Dry air with low humidity acts as a desiccant. Here in central California, shovels, axe handles, fence posts, everything starts to look like your stock in just a few years. Soak it with some raw Linseed oil, and that should stop it. As my carbine has a decent Linseed finish,, I wipe down with Ballistol occasionally, stock and metal. Seems to keep it fresh.
Darn termites!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:
First, take off the stock and look over the entire stock, especially inside the receiver cut-outs.Quote:
Originally Posted by imntxs564
Yes, it could be as too little humidity, as imarangemaster says:If so, then linseed oil is okay, but tung oil has much better anti-fungal preservative qualities, and is the way M-1s were originally treated, BLO being a secondary alternative.Quote:
Originally Posted by imarangemaster
But I think it's more likely oil-rot or humidity rot. (not sure where you are in Texas -- some places are desert-like and other are 100% humidity) The CMP website speaks about this when gun oil gets into M-1 stocks. The petroleum based oils that work wonders on metal are not kind to wood. On Enfields, it is highly recommended to treat any metal-wood interface with a greasy wax (the old Armourers used 50/50 beeswax and petroleum jelly) to protect against humidity that will rust the metal and rot the wood.
The conventional method for oil soaked wood is to soak in turpentine or mineral spirits, then dry it all out with rags, (put the wood wrapped in rags into a black trash bag and let it bake in the sun for several hours to let the heat help the rags draw out the bad oil). Then treat with Tung Oil, let dry, then apply a 50/50 mixture of beeswax and Tung Oil to repel oil and prevent further damage.
If the rot is too severe and you want to keep the stock, you may need to fill the pores of the damaged wood with a wooden-boat repair product like "Git Rot" which solidifies the wood with liquid epoxy.
I apply a good quality wax (like BriWax or Renaissance Wax) to my Tung Oil finish for extra protection and keep a low lustre to the finish. Wax on the metal will do no harm, and many advocate that wax is a better preservative on non-sliding/rotating metal than gun oil.
Note: Either too much dryness or too much humidity is the primary reason why wood needs "feeding" -- contrary to what many museum curators advocate.
I live in So, TX right by the Gulf Coast. I did remove the Stock to look it over and there is a small piece right by the Mag Catch inside the Stock that kinda looks like the front. I do have some Raw Linseed Oil is using Tung oil better in a high humid area like where I live and should I wipe it all over the Stock or just that area. The Stock looks nice except for the front and that little piece, Thanks for that info . Does it matter what oil one should use depending on the humidity and If the oil is causing this is there a way to Stop this reaction without harmimg it. I sure want to SAVE this Stock that's why all the Questions. Thanks for the Help I really appreciate it.
Frank
Frank, I live on the Gulf too. It's always humid here, and every space where guns are stored needs ventilation to keep the humidity under 65%, else fungus and other rot will set in.Quote:
Originally Posted by imntxs564
First, do not oil soak your gun with RLO -- it never dries, will be sticky, attract dirt, and turn yellow then chocolate brown over time. RLO was used as a treatment in the field, but was never used as the original treatment of M-1 stocks. Tung Oil is much better both as a water repellent and as a prevention of fungus.
Second, (assuming the stock is already removed), I'd clean out all the excess oil as outlined in my earlier thread. The area around the Mag Catch is probably from oil rot when lots of oil was poured into the bolt chamber.
Third, you have a choice of carving out the rotted wood and then splicing in new wood, or using epoxy to stabilize the rotten area and build it up. (Do the first option if you are good a woodwork, or the latter if woodwork is not your forte).
Fourth, for the repairs to the fore-end, I'd mix some walnut sawdust and glue and work it into the cracked areas, then sand smooth when dry. You may have to apply stain to the repaired area to get a good color match.
Fifth, I'd apply a couple of coats of Tung Oil (follow directions on the container) to the entire stock, inside and out. Where you made the repairs to the fore-end, you might mix a little stain in with the Tung Oil to cover the repairs.
Sixth, inside the receiver chamber of the stock I'd apply a 50/50 mixture of Beeswax and Mineral Jelly (Vaseline) (heat in a double boiler to mix). This will prevent gun oil from further deteriorating the wood on the inside. Also do this for the barrel channel, the screws on the butt plate, and any where metal contacts wood.
Then reunite the barrel/receiver to the stock. Give the stock a good coat of wax, like BriWax (available at Ace Hardware). You will like the results.
That should do it.
Thanks Robert. I still have it apart and I printed a copy. The nearest professional woodworker now lives in Beeville about 40 miles, but worth to take it to him to repair. I can do some little things like Stain, Oil and do very small repairs, but this Stock is valuable to me and would like it done correct. Seeing what options there are to fix it correct it's worth it to me to take it to get it done right. Thanks for all the help and time you have helped me with.
Semper Fi
Frank
You are welcome Frank. You can do this woodwork yourself -- it's not too difficult.
Speaking of Beeville, TX, that brings back old memories -- 1966 jet fighter training. Flew there from Corpus Christi on an old WWII "gooney bird" (DC-3). The wings literally flapped across Texas -- thought they were going to fall off. Flew in one of the last Panther Jets -- wow! Then went on a dive bombing run with the pilot who was a real air jockey. Took me from 40,000 feet in a straight down dive and pulled out at 1,000 feet. Thought we would open up a hole in the ground. When he pulled out we hit 8 Gs, and my G-suit failed to inflate. That's all I remember until I recovered a half a minute later. Glad I wasn't alone in that cockpit.
Semper Fi, Robert
That's so Cool. Living in C C by the Naval Air Station I've seen some Wild looking Jets as they Train over the C C Bay, in all my life here i've seen 2 pilots ejecting losing there aircraft even though there's been more. It's still a Jet Training facility , but when they Touch and Go they scare the Fish away and you might as well pack it up and go home. Will take this Chat Private or Open Discussion ... I don't want to interfere with others here in the M1 Thread.
Semper FI
Frank
Okay I just got back from Beeville with a Stock he sold me. He said No Problem in fixing the original one. He did mention not to over tighten the Barrel Band cause it does damage to a Stock like problems from those 3 pics. When there's moisture in the Stock it will cause that problem. This is with the one I bought from him.
Frank
Raw linseed oil was issued by the Army for stock maintenance as long as wood stocks were in use and maybe still is used on the M14s that still have wood. It is used on military stocks because it soaks in rather than drying on the surface - you do not want a hard, glossy surface on a military weapon. Tung oil is a shellac, as it dries on the surface. This was fine for a protective coating from the factory but could not be used for repeated applications during a carbine's service life as it would build up. RLO is applied lightly without excessive rubbing. When the carbine is then racked, it soaks in over a few days depending on climate conditions.
If anyone is interested in the way Linseed Oil and Tung Oil were used on M-1 Stocks, here is what the CMP site states:
"From the Trapdoor Springfield 45/70 era through the end of the M-14 era, the essential nature of manufacturer applied wood finishes included linseed oil, tung oil, boiled linseed oil, and what might be called boiled tung oil. While used by the Armed Forces of the United States, the rifles were usually cleaned and protected by the soldiers, sailors, and Marines using boiled linseed oil. As to the M1 Garand Rifle, it is believed that the original manufacturer’s finish utilized boiled linseed oil into which the stocks were dipped and then dried. Subsequently, what might be called boiled tung oil was used instead. The boiled tung oil was a mixture of real tung oil, a carrier or solvent such as mineral spirits or turpentine, and driers similar to those added to boiled linseed oil to help cure the oil."
"Linseed Oil is a natural product best described as a yellowish oil extracted from the seeds of flax grown to make linen. Linseed oil does not dry well and does little to exclude moisture from wood.
Tung Oil is also a natural product best described as a yellow or brownish oil extracted from the seeds of the tung tree. It is also called Chinawood oil. Tung oil does not dry well either and is only slightly better at moisture exclusion than linseed oil.
Boiled Linseed Oil (BLO) is a mixture of linseed oil, a carrier or solvent, and driers. It is superior to pure linseed oil in that it will more completely dry over time and is slightly more waterproof. BLO does not completely cure or dry and multiple coats dry even less well. Boiled Tung Oil (BTO) is a mixture of tung oil, a carrier or solvent, and driers. It is superior to pure linseed oil, pure tung oil, and boiled linseed oil in that it will more likely cure or dry over time and is slightly more waterproof. The BTO finish is slightly harder and more resistant to gun oils and chemicals associated with firearms. None of these four products is really good at excluding moisture from wood.
Minwax Tung Oil Finish is an oil and varnish blend that is much more waterproof and will dry due to added driers. It can be built up into a gloss, but that is not usually done. It is best used as an in the wood finish rather than a built up on the wood finish. Minwax Tung Oil Finish resists scratches and is more resistant to gun oils and chemicals associated with firearms.
The best qualities of Minwax Tung Oil Finish allow it to be wiped on and wiped off properly prepared wood leaving an in the wood finish of a look similar to BLO, but far more stable and protective. A number of coats to clean and repair scratches can be applied without building up on the surface if rubbed in carefully and then rubbed dry. Other finish products with similar sounding names may have far more varnish and behave differently in use. Some are varnishes thinned out enough with carriers and solvents so that they will penetrate into wood and not quickly build a hard film.
Birchwood-Casey Tru-Oil is a polymerized natural oil altered by chemicals and heat to produce a varnish like finish but with a few properties of oils. Tru-Oil builds a hard film on the surface of wood unless it is carefully and sparingly rubbed into the wood with none left on the surface. Tru-Oil quickly builds a gloss. Because of its hard film, Tru-Oil resists water penetration well. It also resists gun oils and chemicals associated with firearms better than any of the above products. Its chief virtues are also its chief problems. Repeated coats build up into a gloss which is often not desired."
The article is quite lengthy and very informative -- probably the best I've seen on old stocks. Rather than debate the issue, here is the link:
Wood Cleaning Article | Civilian Marksmanship Program
When carbine stocks were made they were dipped in heated raw linseed oil. Tung oil or BLO were never used by the makers or the military on carbine stocks. The same with M1 Garand stocks.
There are many MYTHS and TRADITIONS regarding our M-1s (Carbines & Rifles).
Based on the historic evidence, I think this thread by Gus (Artificer) on American Long Rifles really is the most clear explanation that matches the evidence:
Title: Re: Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
Post by: Artificer on November 08, 2013
Print Page - Tung Oil over Boiled Linseed Oil
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A little more on the U.S. government use of RLO, BLO and Tung Oil – because it still affects us today.
Springfield ordered Raw Linseed Oil (RLO) and then turned it into the OLD style of BLO at the Arsenal. On M1903 stocks, they normally wet the stocks down and wiped the excess oil off and allowed the stocks and hand guards to dry on racks. They usually put four to six coats of it on during peace time. They continued to do that at least on the early M1 Garands UNTIL the rear hand guards began charring too much on the underside (right over the barrel breech) and some even caught fire, though only when the rifle was shot more than even usually would have been fired in many firefights.
So Springfield changed to Tung Oil for a couple years on M1 stocks in the first years of WWII, as that finish did not char as the BLO had charred. Tung Oil was known as “China Oil” in Springfield Armory records. However, after a couple of years of WWII, they could no longer get it and had to quit using it.
Then Springfield went back to ordering RLO and making it into BLO, BUT this time they added things so the Rear Hand guards would not char. Springfield continued with the same basic formula of “New style” BLO right through the wood stocks of M14’s. However, this was NOT the same formula as was commonly found in the paint sections of Hardware stores.
Now what has confused people for years is what was “authorized” to be used as the finish on M1 and M14 stocks AFTER they left the Arsenal. Technical and Supply Manuals authorized both RLO and BLO for use on these stocks. Supply Officers and even many Ordnance Officers did not know or forgot that the BLO used at the Arsenal was a VERY different blend than what you normally bought at local Hardware stores (that often included petroleum distillates) near the military bases and that’s where Supply Officers often got the oils. Since RLO was cheaper and was authorized, that’s what they normally bought because they did not know any better.
About the only thing that RLO did for stocks was due to the fact that RLO never fully dries. It kept the stocks from dry “checking/cracking” and the surface of the wood from drying out so much the outer surface of the wood would dry and become powdery as Dan pointed out. For rifles used by Marines and Sailors, it SLIGHTLY protected the wood from salt in the air or salt water, until you could wash the stock with clean water to get rid of the salt. Since RLO barely waives at water vapor going through it, this allowed the salt that mixed with the RLO to be washed out
Generations of those of us in the Armed Forces remember sitting outside in the sun on upside down buckets or on the ground while we rubbed RLO into the wood stocks and wood hand guards. Most of us were told it was good for the stocks, but I doubt many of us were ever told WHY it was done. So now we have three or four generations of Armed Forces personnel who were told it was good to rub RLO or low cost commercial BLO into stocks and that’s why so many people know of it, even though it was never a good stock finish.
Gus
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For anyone interested in the actual Tung Oil MilSpecs, you can read them for yourself on this link:
http://trusting1.com/Mil_Specs_for_T...ood_-_1953.pdf
Sorry Gus but Tung oil was never used on carbine stocks. The ability for it to be imported ended when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. As I said they used raw heated RLS oil only. Tung oil was not favored by the military as it was felt it left a stock with too much of a shine on it just from handling it.