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Hi, can someone tell me what I have, the telescope was purchased from a retired NZ Armour and I'm not sure of the O.S 717 G.A numbers what it is and what year?
The markings are
Tel. Sig. Mk. IV
B.C
LTD
2 CO
7773
O.S 717 G.A
^
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You have a MkVI Signallers Telescope made by Broadhurst Clarkson. I believe the number you are asking about refers to a contract/ design spec for the model. I note it isn't marked "and GS" (general service) like the previous models Signallers Telescopes seem to be... I don't know what the production year would be, some were date marked, some makers didn't date them. Someone may have info on when the models were introduced, I am away from my books at the moment, so won't speculate.
Signallers telescopes have been noted in the CES for sniper rifles early on, but usually they had the Telesope, Scout Regiment MkIIs
Looks to be in pretty good order!
Exactly as Son says plus....... The OS 717 GA part refers to the VAOS part number which would read in full V5 (the Ordnance classification) OS (for Optical Stores) followed by the part number, 717 followed by the status classification which is GA for General Assembly. There were zillions of other combinations of these numbers and letters but unless you were well into the Ordnance stores system or one of the cataloging or pamphlet writing souls with their ability to fool all of the people all of the time then let it all go above your head!
Very basically, as Son has already said, these telescopes were the expensive forerunner to the later and much cheaper Telescope Scout Regiment. These Telescope, signalers (or signals - nobody really knows for sure?) were also used and designated as the GS model. Also quite common to see them in the CES of the old No4T sniper kits too but not with the extra magnification lens and pouch. They were generally pretty good and reliable when used carefully and were still in use in the 80's, in the watchtowers along the border of Bandit Country between N and S Ireland.
That was their fatal flaw................ Like the Scout Reg telescopes, these were nose heavy and round. Which meant that as soon as you put it down on the bench it tended to roll and they would ALWAYS, every time, without fail, as sure as eggs is eggs drop on the OG end and smash the flint glass part of the OG lens on the concrete floor. Why didn't they think of carpeting those lonely bullet riddled watchtowers for heavens sake.......? The Optical/Instrument shops could repair them when OG lenses were available. When the large dia lenses became unavailable and IF the counter cell (the lens holding part) wasn't damaged too much there was a method of replacing the broken large OG lens using an alloy collar and a smaller OG lens from a Scout Reg scope. That was all very well until spare Sct Reg scope OG lenses dried up and thereafter, they were declared obsolete and replaced with an unwieldly but very good SWIFT (that met its nemesis in Gulf 1*)
Here endeth the lesson.........
* OK, since someone asked..... Because you just couldn't keep the sand/dust out and it totally xxxxxd the adjusting mechanism up
Thank you for the information, luckily the lenses are in perfect shape and I will try not to drop it.
I have another telescope that is a Parker-Hale, it’s (I think) the same as a Scout Regiment Telescope and I’ve read that these scopes are just commercial copies of them, but the one I have is part of my Parker-Hale C3 (M82) sniper kit that is NZ Police issue and the same as used by the NZ army in the late 70’s & 80’s.
Perhaps Parker-Hale supplied the telescopes and just branded them with their name?
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Looks like a commercialised Sct Reg Scope. You often see these on the various auction sites under different outlet names, such as Army and Navy etc. If you measure the rear draw you can usually see/feel where the old nomenclature has been linished off with new engraving on the now thicker opposite side. Good for spares - or better still, just use the original B&C marked 3rd draw in your cheap commercial scope and there you have it...... A good Tele Sct Reg or as we called them after about 1976 or so, Telescope, Straight, Cased
Those wooden "Stands, Instrument, No21" not on issue anymore by then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I only ever saw one of them stands. By the time of '.....the troubles' they were looooooong obsolete. The problem with these stands - and the aiming rest that was another useful bit of kit for holding the telescopes - was that it supported the tele at the ends. That way, if the long Captain Pugwash type telescope draw packings/joints were worn the tele tube would form a sort of arc about the joints and make focussing impossible.
Yep, the telescope stand is a pain in the rear, it clamps onto the largest sliding tube of the scope up against the body and if someone gets carried away and does the wing nut up to tight it can damage the tube by crushing it!! Or am I missing some thing?
But it is a work of art all that brass, no plastic in sight.
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Ooops........ made a mistake. Or there must have been several/many variables as the ones we had were long legged with qui8te a complicated extended set of wooden legs but the top end looked 'sort of' familiar. I only ever saw one original set (I can only assume that it was original.......) and it housed a few different brackets to hold this and that. I think that this stand would be a generic instrument stand for several different instruments such as a theodolite or an MG director or for fixing GAP's for the MG's
But the problems would be the same. Hold the old Capt Pugwash telescopes by the ends or the middle and they'll droop causing the our favourite. Optical aberration caused by...... anyway.
Just a thought but could these legs be short replacements of just a more sensible NZ local manufacture
I have one with the long legs.
I have one of each, IIRC the long legged one is WW2 era & the short WW1, though of course I suppose the legs on the short one might once have been long!
Here's a “short”, 17-1/2" tripod for the General Service Signal or Scout Regiment telescopes used for snipers I have. Stamped on one side of the metal clamp on the tripod that secures of the telescope is, Semins Bros & CO LTD, London, 1916, and a Broad Arrow and on the other side is TRIPOD TELESCOPE, No. 21, Mk5. (CIAI). (A Canadian stamp). It’s made for the two telescopes. It was an original made British long leg Tripod which was either cut down or new legs made for it as the legs have the same dia overall with no wood overhang on the end caps. It has the British broad arrow ownership stamped on the scope covers and a shorter sling with an 18" canvas center and overall length including, the leather ends of 42" that was made specifically for the shorter leg tripod.
Here's an almost mint condition Scout Regiment MkII telescope I also have, maker marked B.C. LTD &CO. Serial # 24929. OS126.O.A. with a Broad arrow. The scope has about 95% of its original blackening on the tube still remaining. The black finish on most scopes generally is missing/worn off from use with only the brass of the tube showing. The telescope is complete with a mint condition original leather carrying case with all straps.
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Yep, I think the sort legs on mine were once long, may have been shorted for easier use by a spotter/sniper? There is one for sale here in NZ at the moment (short leg) fitted with one adjustable leg which may have been fitted later?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
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On the subject of the Stand, Instrument, No21 MkV.... Was the short leg version an official type or are all the ones we see been cut down for use by range shooters prone on the mound?
I looked through the LoC ages ago but don't recal seeing anything on the subject. The stand I have is over two feet tall and in unused cond. I will stick up a pic when I get home, I have a pic somewhere of one with a Tel Sct Regt in it in an observation post on the side of a mountain.
Edit to add pics... on the topic of caring for your telescope in the stand, I have added pieces of adhesive backed felt to the clamps and do not tighten it right up to ensure I don't damage the telescope.
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Just out of interest, I found the LoC entry for the introduction of the "Telescope, scout regiments (Mark I) L" dated 15 Oct 1923
Aluminium, magnification 22; fireld of view 98 minutes; in leather case with strap and sling.
Introduction
A pattern of the above mentioned telescope has been approved to govern manufacture for Land Service as may be ordered.
The telescope is for use of Scout regiments, and is generally similar to the "Telescope, signalling, Mark IV (LoC 17061) from which it differs principally in the following particulars-
The body and draw tubes are made of aluminium
It has only one power, viz, 22 diameters
The field of view is 98 minutes
A leather case, with sling, is provided for carying the telescope
Weight of telescope, in case, 2-lb 6-oz approximately.
I note the reference to "Signalling" and not "signallers" in the text- brought up earlier in the thread somewhere.... unfortunately Ian's extract from the LoC do not seem to cover telescopes, so I cannot check out the reference above.
That looks like a range stand to me. Adjustable rear leg for the slope of the mound.
Here's a couple of old long posts with lots of discussion and interesting info on Tripods. Son contributed some posts in them and so did I in one of them. Ray
Signalling Telescope Stands (Tripods), - Miscellaneous - Great War Forum
Scout Regiment tripod [Archive] - Military Surplus Collectors Forums