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Hi guys. This is my 1st post. Ive got a British SLR and would like to see if theres any way to find out its history by the serial number. the number is :UB61 A128663, also i have Austrailian Defence SLR serial number: AD6220675. any help would be apprecited.
In a word, no! Apart from the obvious facts that it was originally made in 1961 by BSA in Birmingham. And the Aust rifle was made in 1962 for the NZ Army
Forget trying to find any history on the British production rifles.....been there, shouted at that brick wall and got no response, despite looking into various avenues!
For some reason the info is still shrouded in secrecy, or just plain lost!
What makes you think that there will be - or ever WAS - a what we used to call a 'back-records check' record of where your rifle served Mr Clarke? I don't think there was past its initial issue.
It will have come in to Ordnance as a serial number and stored under a NSN WITH a serial number. It will be issued to another Ordnance depot in, say, Singapore or Viersen or Berlin or wherever and the paper trail is lost once the receipt from the new depot is received and is taken on charge there. Then it's issued to The 1st XYZ regiment at Dusseldorf and taken on charge by the Quartermaster of the 1st XYZ regiment at Dusseldorf. The paper trail at Viersen is then lost once the QM returns the receipt.
Once the tank or Land Rover or Bedford lorries or Office equipment or Compasses or Wristwatches or night vision equipment is taken on charge at the regiment (the end user) there is no back check. I mean........., just ask yourself........., where would this mountain of paper end up. It wouldn't!
I have gone into this in greater depth some time ago. It's the same as if you buy an ex army Land Rover. If you have the old registration number such as 36ER24 or 35CL21, you will be told when it was taken on charge and date the vehicle is returned for disposal*, but on the day of disposal, the vehicle history log is lost. (I know the owners of this that and the other tell you this that and the other crap but believe me.........)
*This is required by law as between those dates the MoD were effectively the registered keeper.
Nope, there is no paper trail backwards of the end user. If there WAS a backward trace system, tell me this........... Why couldn't they trace the rifles involved in Bloody Sunday. Go on.............. I was involved in the 'no-hope' hunt for them!
Or more likely, not everyone has the American or German paperwork and record-keeping obsession.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
Evening Peter, I was alluding to Factory contracts (Like the readily available Lithgow contract info), not their military issue history. BSA and Enfield obviously had the records at one time...
Ah, yes...... BSA contract records are now housed at the BHam museum of Science and Technology. But what is slightly interesting is that a BSA rifle with a 6 figure number is/was SAID to be a 5 figure number originally allocated to Fazakerley but with a 1 prefix added so as to clear any ambiguity. My rifle in Malaya was UB58A121xxx (don't ask me how you remember these things.....) and it had a Fazakerley TMH from new.
So, Fazakerley were originally allocated UF 57A 20000 but didn't make it out of the starting gate so production was transferred to BSA who took over production AND components but started their numbering at UB57(or was it 58?)A - insert a 1 to make it 6 figures, so A110000 and so on. Whatever it was, the early 6 figure numbers were an anomaly of some sort. Don't blame me if this is a load of bollxxxx as it's all from some memory and my rifle that I remember well
Have you deciphered the L1A1 serial numbering batches KtK
The British L1A1 Serial numbers are a nightmare........... Fazakerley issued numbers are well... somewhere, I know from examining photos or rifles and parts kits that it would appear that Enfield took on Fazakerley's production components as its not uncommon to find F and D marked parts on Enfield assembled rifles. I have a new unfired Enfield (Mk. 2)* L1A1 rifle dated 1961 and it has Fazakerley parts on it.
When I look at what serial numbers I have the BSA assembled rifles seem to have a nice lineal progression of serial numbers through the years 1957 - 1962.
But when you hop over to the Enfield serial numbers they are all over the place, there appears to be consistent blocks of serial numbers then there are random ones in years that they shouldn't be in if they were naturally following a sequence.
Did Enfeild mark the year date according to the Calender year or to the financial year? (I suspect its to the Calender year) if that is so then the numbers are in an even worse order in some years.
There could be a sequence of 1960 dated serial numbers going along in a nice order and then the next group are dated 1957 or 1958 and then there is a nice group of 1960 dated again. It happens all over the place with Enfield numbers. I think Fazakerley's numbers were sent over to Enfield to use. The info I have is very limited and really could be interpreted in a million different ways the parts eg Bolt and Carrier could be miss-lablled as the the original UB / UE designations, the info people have supplied was miss-read etc.
One thing I would love to get my hands on the Serial Number ledgers for BSA and Enfield as they would answer a lot of questions........ including the makeup of the British Steel Batch Markings (SBM), I suspect BSA and Enfield would of had similar ledgers to those used by Lithgow to record the SBM, proofing, grouping, order number, date of manufacture and who the rifles were purchased by and where the depot/port they were sent to.
*It was proposed that the new alterations to production brought into service in 1960/61 were to be part of the Mark 2 L1A1 rifle, in effect it should of been the new L1A2 Rifle, part of this program was to incorporate lightweight components, but this never eventuated so the rifle rolled out of the factory with its old designation L1A1. Changes included the a New Butt design, Gas Cylinder/ Carrying Handle Screw, changes to the Firing Pin and Spring, and a myriad of changes to the manufacturing tolerances that had been incorporated since the rifle first went into production in 1957.
Re the proposed L1A2 rifle. I can see problems already....... You start production of a 'new' A2 rifle in 1961 or so that incorporates EVERY modification up to that date. Two part firing pin, modified gas cylinder and screw etc etc. So far so good. Just like they did with the L7A1 GPMG which became the production L7A2.
The problems then start because modifications, by definition, are an ongoing process. After the A2 rifle you'd STILL have fully modified A1 rifles AND there'd be A2 rifles with further, later modifications such as modified locking lever screws and so on and on. JUST like the GPMG's.
Like GPMG's in service, you still see early 1965 BL made GPMG's, UE L7A1 GPMG's and L7A2 GPMG's and they're all the same, fully modified to current spec and are technically and mechanically pretty well identical EXCEPT that some are marked A1 and some are A2's
I can see that would have happened to the rifles.
Just my view there of course.
So chaps ..... can we assume, tucked away in Whitehall or somewhere else, that records exist of BSA/ENFIELD serial number batches provided to Rhodesia and other "friendly" countries??
Or were these not foreign sale commercial contracts as such, but MOD ordered and diverted rifles, sold on a Government to Government basis?
BSA were commercial contractors to the MoS and Enfield were a Govt factory wholly owned and operated by the MoS for the Govt. So export contracts would be for the Govt. on a Govt to Govt basis. The L1A1's were all made under tight and strict conditions set out by FN. Our rifles were sold at crippling prices and other Govt buyers soon discovered that it was FAR, far cheaper to buy from the more friendly and easier-to-do-business-with Lithgow.
The archive records from Enfield are held at the old Royal Ordnance/BAe historical centre at Glascoed. Maybe you could ask.... I forget his name now but I'm sure a letter would get there.
What Govt's do you think the UK Govt sold L1A1's to?
Thanks for that Peter, I will request information and report back any findings to the group.
Rhodesia was one buyer, I thought the Bahamas also bought them along with Lithgow L1A1's ?? Lots were later gifted/sold to stable peace loving countries like Sierra Leone and the Lebanon of course!
I wonder how many of the ex Lebanese L1A1's are now plying their trade in Syria!
Ah, Lebanon......... They turned them down during the trade deal that turned sour in the mid 90's as my pal Sgt Ed xxxx was part of the ill fated team that took them there for trials. They thought that they were getting something new for peanuts apparently.
About the only "continuous" records are the "gun-plumbers" logs and "maintenance" records that are / were supposed to follow EVERY piece of major kit. Armourer's logs are kept by the armourer as a personal record of work done. They usually contain a "potted" version of work done and parts exchanged on each piece of gear. This information is also copied into OTHER, more comprehensive documents that are held by the "owner unit" and generally travel with the gear if it is "permanently" transferred to another unit.
Once gear is "out of the system", i.e. sold or destroyed, there is little point in retaining such records.
Tracking "transfers" from unit to unit is a non-starter, as well. In many commonwealth forces, it was traditionally the practice for the soldier / airman etc, to take his "personal" weapon from unit to unit, as and when transferred / posted. Usually, in the days before computers, the armourers paperwork for that weapon would be part of the bundle of documents handed / transferred to the new unit on arrival of the serviceman. When a unit is disbanded, a LOT of paperwork will be culled.
The only paperwork I've manage to find with some sort of 'history' for the rifle was the stores transfer forms (packing slip) that were left or discarded in the Transit Chests when the rifles were returned to 1 Base Workshops during the changeover to the Steyr. Each chest was stuffed with 10 rifles. On the form it lists which unit the rifles were from and their serial numbers. Unfortunately I only have about 14 pieces of paper.... history for 140 rifles out of 15,000.
New Zealand didn't issue rifles to Individuals, they were issued to a unit and when needed the unit would simply take X number of rifles out and issue them to the solider when required for training, exercises, drill etc.
I went to Nigeria on MOD business in about 2003. The honour guard (for my boss!) had L1A1s. I heard that we sold them to the Nigerians for not a lot, if anything. Better than cutting them up I suppose.
The Sierra Leone Defence Force was 'Gifted' L1A1 Rifles.
A LOT have turned up in Germany. And have been deactivated for the market there.
'Some' parts have found their way back to the UK through the Trade.
And have been utilised in building Straight Pull Rifle to Legally comply with the UK's Stupid
F/Arms laws.....:o
The deal was, that NONE of these Ex UK Force's Rifles. Once exported. Were not to be re-imported back here.......The UK Government does NOT like or Want to sell Smallarms to the British Public/Trade. In ANY form whatsoever! :confused:
I believe that is also Policy for Aussie Smallarms now as well?.............:ugh:
That is the way most countries are going. In Canada they lost the ability for police and military to sell there small arms to civilians in 1994.
Thus all ours went to the shredder...picture that in your minds eye...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaglelord17