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Morning chaps,
This is a new one on me, a mate of mine has just bought a straight pull L1A1 and the return spring housing tube has apparently been reduced/machined back at the end, as a result it only requires two half turns to tighten the nut..
Was this done for any reason in service (cant see why), or just cut back because of stripped threads as a "that's good enough" civilian repair? :bash:
Ideas on a post card please gents...
I'd say a cheapskates way of using a previously unserviceable RS tube with damaged thread by chopping the damaged threads off. Do you mean two half turns = 1 FULL turn OR two and a half turns? Either way, in engineering practice you should have THREE full turns to ensure, er..... I forget the word now - but less than that is poor quality in any case and I'd take it back
Any Decent engineer would have reclaimed the threads, even if they are a very fine pitch!
You could use a thread file, or a thread chaser nut. Poor workmanship in any case. :confused:
But these threads were internal as I read it.
Morning chaps,
Yep, internal threads stripped, replacement NOS tube now ordered by the owner, (I would guess that going by how many of these NOS tubes are still available, they must have been changed out quite frequently in service!) so all is good.
Many thanks indeed for feedback gents.
To be honest I don't recall having changed many. The exception was Malaya where they'd rot out as rust took hold between the wood and tube.
Tel your pal that when it's screwed in that he will/might need to take a rat tail file to the part of the tube at the bottom edge of the TMH back plate where the return spring rod articulates itself as it's moving back and forth.
Tankie will remind me fully - but wasn't there a modification to prevent the nut jambing into the tube? Without the mod, when you undid the nut, the whole tube would unscrew from the TMH causing all sorts of problems.
Where are you when we need you Tankie!
Will do Peter, he is keeping an eye on the thread, I will get him to join our merry band!
Thanks again, John.
Hi John and Peter,
Posts noted thanks chaps, I will check that the tube does not undo/move when the screw is unscrewed....
John had no luck finding any gunsmith within a 2 hour drive of me with go/nogo gauges I could try. :surrender:
There's no gauges you need for the RSTube. It's just screw in tight and file the clearance slot for the RS rod.
Tankie will come in later re the modification you should make. If it does unscrew on the nut it means you have to destroy either the tube or the butt
Hi Peter sorry my fault, I know you don't need gauges for the RSTube, I need the go/nogo gauges just to check the headspace, should have made it clearer in my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
1.6325 go. 1.643 no-go. They were a one-off for the L1A1 as I recall. Anyone in the UK who's got a set now will be well out of calibration
Modifications 4 and 7 ( No 4 and 7 stamped on the inside of the butt plate trap door, on wooden butt)
One mod was the drilling of a hole in the return spring tube, I think the other was a change to a new pattern screw. It's been a long time.......
Yes Pete, But without digging My on E.M.E.Rs out of the attic. I cannot state accurately what it was. But I used Loctite to fix 'em in place!
Problem eliminated!
IF, you ever then needed to remove a loctited RST. You would have to use heat from a blow torch to warm the TMH up to kill the loctitite.
Of course this would burn the paint off of it. & it would have to be rustproofed again. But Hey! When you have a command workshop down the road
that has that facility. You simply jump in your car & take the TMH with you. Chucked in with a LOAD of other weapon components for rustproofing at the same time. I could turn one around in an Hour!......;)
Just been told that it was to bevel the leed into the RST thread with a scraper and slightly bevel the first thread of the screw so that the threads didn't pick-up, lock-up and jamb-up - to create a fxxxx-up when you tried to undo the nut! (as described to me by Sgt Roger XXXX!). The screw was changed eventually as Skippy says. But just be advised if you need to do anything to the butt assembly.
It got me thinking......... When did we last see L1A1's in service? I seem to remember seeing the last few floating around in 1998/9 or so.
I would have thought the last few on the books were used to train Sierra Leone Army Personnel in 2000ish (I believe some were trained in the UK)?
At least the Australians still use their Lithgow L1's for parade use and very smart examples they look too!
Mmmmmmmm. That'd be about right but they'd have been taken out of Ordnance reserve stocks for that and probably not have been weapons held by a unit at that late stage in the game. We had a similar encounter/need for L2A3's for training at about the same time. We needed 8 but by then they'd all been smelted.
I covered this on a previous thread. They L1A1's for Sierra Leone were 'Gifted' by this Country's Government. Those particular weapons had been purchased by a Private Individual @ £5.00 Each!.......There were six thousand of them. The Unfortuante who purchased the weapons, was not allowed an export permit. & after six months still in military storage, he was going to then be charged for storage after that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
He ended up selling them BACK to the MOD for £1 Each!!! So they had still been paid for. But we could then afford to 'Gift' them very Generously. To the SL Government!............................
Morning Mike,
I would assume they were all top notch refurbished war reserve pieces too, most of the examples seen in the hands of those drug fuelled "gangs", in the old news clips appear to be in excellent condition.
Anything that was retuened to Ordnance had to be in perfect condition and as per the current CES. The only things that I can recall recently where this didn't apply were 2" mortars and Bren/L4's which were long obsolescent so it only included the return of the actual guns and SOME parts of the old L42 CES
Morning John, Yes you are quite correct. ( & as you can see, Peter backs this up) They were ALL refurbished stock weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
Anything going back into stock. Would as a matter of routine. Have been totally refurbed to as new standard before being put back into reserve.
It would be pointless quite frankly, to have done anything else. If they were ever needed, thy could be issued out with confidence.
That they were fit for purpose & Ready for further service. As required.
(And the 'Bounus' of this procedure was. That it kept the Civvy Employee's workflow going!.....) ;)
I would like to add a little to this from an inspection point of view of two British ex war reserve refurbished L1A1 rifles, they were bagged and tagged in 1990. I think the issues I found had more to do with the civilian employee's. The rifles I examined came wrapped and preserved, they had tags indicating "In the case of complaint this label must be returned to: OIC sub depot bldg 034 COD Donnington Telford Salop TF2-8JT"
Both rifles had been refurbished, one was covered in Australian made parts, no problem there. But the other had a body cover with cracked 'ears' and it looked like they went at the plastic Handguards, Butt and Pistol Grip with a sandblaster and then a spray gun to do the paint finish on the metal.... and plastic.
Dose anyone know if I can sill return the 'label' to the OIC sub depot bldg 034 COD Donnington and get a replacement rifle? :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by tankhunter
We had to accept the cracked ears on the body cover as 'of no mechanical or material consequence' if I remember the correct wording. As a result we were authorised to simply snip them off and make good.
You're right about the plastic. We did slightly bead blast these parts as a method of hiding/eliminating/smoothing-out of any small blemishes. We STILL do the same (in khaki of course) on L85 grips and handguards. But the paint is different and only warmed to dry as opposed to going through the oven. It's the same paint as used on plastic car bumpers etc etc. We still do L85 plastic parts today!
The chief small-arms examiner at Donn. was Ivan 'the terrible' Cooper. You could send him a letter to say that you were a tad disappointed with the work that he allowed into the War Reserve stock and you feel tempted to write to trip advisor. But before you do, maybe he could refund part of the cost to show some degree of goodwill and that would be an end of the matter. I expect he'd have a laugh. No....., knowing him, a grumpy old ex wartime trained Armourer he wouldn't!!!!!!
Best return it Kevin,happy to act as your UK agent, so just mark the box as "Tractor Parts" and I will pm you the address!Quote:
Originally Posted by nzl1a1collector
On the subject of these war reserve L1A1's, does anyone know what the story is behind the final sell off of Enfield and BSA (mainly BSA for some reason) L1A1 parts kits bought from Donnington in about 2010.
The final stock of L1A1 parts was cleared out of Donnigton by a well known Sec5 dealer a couple of years back (2013 I think), he now sits on many, many tons of component parts!
Why were these rifles stripped I wonder? The matching number receivers/TMH's appear to be in very good to excellent condition, with little sign of use, all have military proof marks, so were once compete rifles.
The majority of the Straight pull rifles I have seen built up from these kits are not suncorite painted, but still in original factory chemical black finish, so appear to have seen little service... Perhaps Ex Cook House Rifles issue!
Also, my 1962 Enfield SP also has six different Enfield inspectors stamps on the right wall of the receiver, not somthing I have seen on other examples I have handled in the past
It seems to indicate a rifle (or component part) stored and inspected periodically at ROF Enfield, did Enfield carry out any FTR programme on the L1A1 I wonder?
Para 2 above. 2013!!!!! Who told you that? Stockpiling obsolete spare parts and weapons is just an expensive way of storing fresh air. Especially after the early 90's when Donn became a commercially owned and based storeage and distribution agency that paid for the space it used.
Para 4 above. The finish of these SP rifles appears to be/most certainly is a recent chemical finish and not the original or phosphate/paint finish
ROF Enfield was not a store but a manufacturer.
Hi Peter,
That's what I have been told, the final sell off of L1A1 parts went to tender a couple of years ago, (mainly small parts I think). The last of the complete parts kits (everything bar barrel) were bought at tender by a few UK dealers in 2010 with Straight pull builds in mind ... Big final clear out I would guess.
Regarding finish, interesting, whoever carried out the chemical refinish, certainly did it with great care, as the finish is uniform, inside and out. It must have been done at some point prior to store as they all exhibit slight signs of use, edge wear etc. They were purchased out of Donnington this way, with no refinish to the receivers, just to the new barrel.
With regard to Enfield Peter, I was just thinking out loud, trying to come up with a good reason for the row of separate Enfield inspection stamps on the receiver (all different inspector numbers) not something I have personally seen before on an L1.
Cheers, John
Attachment 64973Attachment 64972pics of the Enfield inspection stamps on my Enfield, all along the left wall of the receiver, there are others, but so lightly stamped you can't read them.
Also pics of the change lever, just for fun and because its the first (and so far only) lever I have seen with the non destructive test triangle mark on!
John, Your TMH is from another rifle Mate. Notice where the serial number is.
The base area behind it , has been milled. Thus removing the original number, & then re-engraving the No. to match the receiver.
It was quite common for change levers (The Crunchies used to call them Safety catches)
to work loose on the crossshafts.
Easily rectified with a small blob of weld to the head of the crossshaft. & the lever itself.
You had to be carefull not to apply TOO much weld. as the heat transference Across the metal surfaces. COULD destroy the tempering of the operating coil spring. In the lever Thumb section. That housed it, & the positioning Ballbearing!....:eek:
On the subject of TMH's, replacement was a Field or Base repair. The TMH part number was 'blocked' against a unit demand. I often wondered why as it wasn't a special time consuming fitting job but Ian Kxxxxx at REME Tech Services (later 14 MAG) told me that it was to save on costs. Being an expensive part - I seem to think that the last VAOS price was £91 or so - it meant that Field workshops would only keep a couple in stock on an as-need basis. If a rifle was ZF at Field or Base (you can only ZF a weapon at that level.....) they'd occasionally change out a perfect TMH and send it for the chop with an unserviceable one. That's presumably what's happened to yours with a re-number, to save an expensive waste.
Thinking out aloud, I'm trying to think of reasons for scrapping TMH's. There were a few faults.
Loss of the little front filler plate that was a simple repair. That was usually caused by letting the hammer fly forwards uncontrolled while the TMH is off the body.
Loose rear block that we could repair/tighten by dollying the cross rivets with the ball-pein hammer.
Worn out axis pin holes - virtually to the point of being oval! There was a set of ring punches to 'cure' this but ring punching really is a palliative and not a cure in engineering circles. There were several good suggestions to cure them*.
Never encountered worn trigger/hammer axis pin holes
Damaged threads in backsight housing slide part. Quite how was never explained to anyones satisfaction! Other bits easily rectified.
Got any more Tankie, Skippy, Son, BAR, BinO? Anyway, that's my Saturday morning contribution on this pommy Bank Holiday weekend
* The best(?) being a suggestion by the Armourer apprentices section at Stirling Base Workshop. It was a kit of two bushes that were bushed into both opposite overbored axis holes in worn out TMH. Holes then slightly countersunk internally. Bushes locktited and flared out on the inside to retain them tight. New two part longer axis pin and screw. VERY good but barely economic so I was told! They were well rewarded though for the time and effort. More to it than that of course and Bordon EMER team raised a few small points - if anyones really interested......
Morning Mike, I thought the TMH was replaced, very neatly done job, other examples appear to range from just barred out and renumbered to ground off and renumbered.
I suppose if this one was refurbished for war reserve, it would be done carefully.
We didn't worry toooo much about the aesthetics of things! Barring out was the norm as you see from Bren barrels etc etc. At Aldershot and Warminster we had several jigs specially made for things that needed numbering, such as No2/L9 slides and barrels, No4 magazines and bolts, SLR TMH's, BB's and carriers....., you know the sort of thing. Put the part in, tighten up with a couple of positioning bolts and they'd align it to a pre positioned place It was a simple matter to take out the engraving cutter and put in a small milling cutter. Mill out the old number and then engrave the number into said slot. Did plenty of No2 pistol slides like that too as we weren't allowed to stamp the number
Morning Peter, many thanks for that info, being the eternal L1 anorak that I am, its great to get this sort of first hand knowledge.
Would someone search out another UE62 TMH to re-number, or is this just a case of luck of the draw on my rifle?
Pete, Along the lines of a repair to a TMH. But not an In service example.
Earlier in the year, I had a Deac L1A1 in for repair's (Various) & one of the suprising things to Me, was the underside Tang was broken off!
Well, it was a simple matter to select a small piece of sheet steel from the 'Ferrous Metals' Box under my Bench.
& cut out with a hacksaw, & shape to correct profile. Then Bore a retaining screw hole in the new Tang.
Then Mig Weld it to the correct position on the TMG. A quick coat of Suncorite 259, & reassemble the TMH with it's componants.
Refit to the Rifle, & you would never know it had been replaced!...:D
I even stamped the Tang with a Small Pheon (Arrow) UK Property Mark!....:thup: