Last Round jamming, feed lip adjustment

I have a No 4 Mk 2 that jams on the last round. It appears that when the magazine is loaded the rounds are held wider apart by the next round and they feed fine. When I reach the last round,the raised part of the follower is narrower and the last round is able to move to the left and slip from underneath the right magazine lip. It then tilts upwards to the left jamming when the bolt is brought forward.

Rather then work the magazine lips and risk breaking them I figured I would ask first.

Which way should the magazine lips be adjusted?

Rick

You won't break the feed lips on Lee Enfield mag. They're soft enough you can adjust them. You'll see...and you have to figure it out from what you see. The lip either needs to go outward or inward...just that simple.

Like BAR says. You need to watch and digest exactly what is happening to the last round feeding when you very slowly close the bolt. It's obvious I know, but the nose of the round must be guided to the opening of the breech. Once it is heading in that direction, under guidance and control of a) the bolt face and b) the magazine lip, then that's all there is to it.

The feed front and rear feed lips control the round when it is in what we call 'the twilight zone'. That is when it's being moved forwards in the magazine by the bolt face, under control of the feed lips, heading towards but not quite IN the chamber opening. Once it's in there, you're home and dry

I've had similar problems. Little things like fit and feed make a big difference.
-1) Be sure the mag you use has a strong, "fresh" follower spring -- a soft spring will create problems.
-2) Be sure the follower travels easily in the mag. One I had was too tight because the follower bound on the sides along the grooves. I took out the follower, then, using a Dremel tool, ground a shallow curve in the area of the mag groove, filing any hard edges, and then using a little grease to make sure there was no binding between the follower and the mag -- it must slide easily.
-3) The feed lips are very delicate both front and rear. For me this was trial and error. If the forward feed lips aren't properly adjusted, you will experience failures to feed, and failures to strip. This can show up in a variety of ways: Last Round won't feed, Every Other Round won't feed, or sometimes every round jams. The forward feed lips just barely hold the front of the cartridge in place. The rear feed lips must be set so that their is enough of the cartridge rim to be picked up by the bolt. This problem can be made worse if the mag isn't seated firmly and completely in the mag well. Additionally, the rear feed lips have to have the right "tilt" so that the cartridge angles properly into the chamber when the bolt contacts the cartridge rim. And be aware that each of the rear lips must be carefully adjusted independently.
-4) Lastly, in my experience, chambering a cartridge must be a quick, snappy movement. A slow movement of the bolt can result in cocking the cartridge (as Peter Laidler refers to the "twilight zone,") with the bullet jamming before it enters the chamber.

None of this adjusting will prevent "rimlock" -- when the rim of the top round is behind the rim of the next lower cartridge.

could you buy a spare magazine that works on all ten rounds. compare its overall conditionand specificaly its lips conditions to your own. and then bend your own accordingly. this would put you in the ball park without alot of bending and breaking of magazines and lips.

I did this because my mgazine was numbered to my rifle and I did not want to damage beyond repair that particular magazine.

There are articles on this fitting a mag here written by a member if not someone will chime in I am sure, as its not a case of one mag fits all according to the burst they have to be tailored to suit the weapon and going on todays prices for the mags unless you know someone they are getting a bit pricey

yes but how much more valuable is the one that matches your gun....undamaged.
your probably right.
it did work for me though.
and wasnt every soldier issued with two magazines.

As a matter of fact...there was a written direction that no extra mag would be issued per rifle. There's more than one thread here too discussing that very thing. I'm quite certain you can get the feed lips working correctly on your current mag...no fears there.

I magazine per rifle and that's all. We did occasionally have to reject magazines but generally only because they were totally worn out or wouldn't fit tightly at the back-strap. We used to adjust magazine lips to feed every day, day in and out. You just have to look at what's going on slowly from above and adjust accordingly. It's just experience and every magazine fits and operates differently in every rifle. That's why they're numbered - because they are individually fitted.

As a matter of interest we'd occasionally have a big purge and get together 50 or so magazines with worn back straps, cut the strap back, silver solder a new section in and remake to new leaving the strap slightly long. Then use these magazines while rebuilding other rifles needing magazines. Bar out old and re-number to suit new rifle. We didn't waste much

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

1 magazine per rifle and that's all

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Capt. Laidler's advice is always the best in the long run. All you need is one magazine.

But here's the rub: If you don't have a good working magazine to compare yours to, the trial and error lip bending can be vexing, especially if the problem is compounded by a problem with a follower and/or follower spring, as I mentioned in thread #4. If you are new to Lee Enfields, and have only one rifle, you have nothing to which you can compare a good versus bad magazine.

About 25% of the Enfields I've purchased have had the some version of the problem you describe, so you are not alone. When I was faced with this problem the first time, it happened on the second Enfield I purchased, so I was able to compare a good mag to a bad one. However, in lieu of buying another gun, you could consider purchasing another good mag. I bought a spare 1956 NOS (New Old Stock) that functions well in every one of my No.4 and No.5 Enfields. It is the "standard" I use for follower spring pressure, fluid feed, and feed lip adjustment.

In the long view, having more than one Enfield has meant I have several good working examples against which to compare a poorly functioning one; it's a great way to learn the nuances that give every single Enfield a unique personality. Most of us who collect Enfields get Enfielditis -- the obsessive-compulsive need to collect another.

This thread amuses me, in all my years of gunplumbing I have never had a feed problem with any 303.
I have about 40 of them myself, often mix magazines when shooting and still no trouble. (having said that you can guarantee I will now......Murphy being alive and well.)

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

in all my years of gunplumbing I have never had a feed problem with any 303.

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Consider yourself on a lucky streak. I have acquired over a dozen Lee Enfields. Four of them had feed problems from the outset. Please stay amused. For those who had to fix the problem, believe me it was vexing, as I have indicated in earlier threads. Perhaps some of the problems were created by earlier owners who then ditched the guns after frustration. But I can attest some of the problems were weak follower springs, followers binding on the mag grooves, poorly aligned feed lips, mags that did not seat properly, and even a No1MkIII mag in a No4MkI. For the poor bloke who has bought his first Lee Enfield and encountered this problem, it can be very perplexing, especially if one has no proper mag to compare.

Just like I swear by VW quality and reliability. NEVER let me down, even my last Polo slogged mercilessly to death to work an back and still sold quickly with 200,000 miles on the clock. My friends VW on the other hand is the biggest pile of poo he's ever set eyes on!

Here are some photos of the Lee Enfield jamming.

Rick

Nose up on the last round

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7jdvkj6p-1.jpg

Bolt brought forward resulting in last round jam.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5dgfkqkg-1.jpg

What mag follower is in there?

It is the No 4 follower I believe, the magazine is serial numbered to the rifle.

Rick

Has the mag got the front spring in it which slides down the front of the follower I think the part No. is CR42 it is a small flat thing with a short end bent over with a small hole in it that locates onto a nib at the front of the Mag but could be wrong it looks as though the follower is coming right up as the front lips are even under the front of the follower, guys can I ask a really dumb question was the floor plate a different shape for the NATO 7.62 round I am just being obtuse in a swapped follower who knows this things history do not cane me ok :p also the bullet profile what projie is it the same COAL as a Mk VII? I have had a few feed issues with different profiled bullets but changed the length so they fed properly.
Had used some really stubby 110gn in my No.4's what a pain they were and the 150gn Hornadys in both my 4's and Mk III's need to be seated out with the cannular showing otherwise feed issues occur (They pop out) see pic of how I have had to seat them out and crimp them

The magazine follower is stamped F 52 so I am guessing that it is a #4 follower made in 1952 at Fazakerly. it does have the front spring on the magazine.

Rick

Yes, the 7.62 is a different magazine completely. The follower might not even fit in a proper #4 mag. I have seen some different ones in there though. Perhaps the front feed lip is too high and not holding the bullet until it starts up the feedway. Yes, a shorter bullet will give problems...these were made for the long bullets. The old ones were round nose but long. The later were long and very pointed.

Cinders,

The dummy rounds are using Hornady 174 grain FMJ bullets. I have the same problem with Privi Partisan 174 grain FMJ rounds.

Rick

Try 174SMK's and see what give maybe a person at your shooting club can give you 5 projies just a thought

Exasperation or wot......... We've got to 3 pages (so far I hasten to add.....) relating to a trivial mechanical fault that STILL ain't cured! I can see what's wrong from here. The left front magazine lip isn't controlling the movement of the nose of the projectile. It REALLY is as simple as that and in truth an everyday minute-on-the- bench repair. You test the car with the fuel it was made to run on. Get rid of the drill rounds you are using and test it with .303" NATO Mk7 ball. Fix it and be done with it!

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

As a matter of fact...there was a written direction that no extra mag would be issued per rifle

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extra as in a third magazine?

off the topic but skennerton indicated both one and two magazines. and who can really say with a couple of millions of rifles spread out over 25 % of the world over a period of about 100 years among units in combat vs units in support positions in wars around the world almost constantly?

perhaps that document represents a period of time stated by Skennerton when there was a batch of deffective mags and a shortage of good mags? and would that one mag rule apply to units stationed away from combat in order to relieve the shortage in the combat zone? I dont know. but it is at least plausable. Skennerton does not go into depth on this. One thing he does state is that with the deffective mags. capacity was limited to 5 rounds.

. I can assure you when some desk warrior sent a memo like that down the line ( and they did often) it never stopped us from packing extra mags. Our unit armorer back us up on this too. Those extra mags were the ones the desk warriors never used. I had 10 extra mags shipped to me from home. I carried a browning hi power with two mags..... 6 more from home and I made sure every one worked first. Everybody from our capatain on down, understood and looked the other way.

so....

you might want to confirm this with the soldiers who actually carried one., two or more extra mags. You might be surprised

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Originally Posted by mike16

extra as in a third magazine?

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One mag per rifle. No extras were issued. This has been stated over and over...through various threads. Hard to get this through it seems.

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Originally Posted by mike16

you might want to confirm this with the soldiers who actually carried one., two or more extra mags. You might be surprised

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I started in the army with those guys, seems they didn't carry extras, just bandoleers.

Once again Mike, let's not get into a long winded discussion here....... I have been an Armourer since 1963 and we were always part of the quartermasters staff (....not always) and take it from me that each No4 rifle was issued with ONE magazine. Not in the UK Military but elsewhere in the Commonwealth too. Just read the Infantry Training booklet

Obviously, I made the mistake of asking for advice from those who have more experience then me to be told that a.) Lee Enfields don't jam b.) it is a stupid easy fix.

Sorry for asking a question, seems like this board is only for experienced people to tell others how experienced they are.

I will fix it myself and not bother the gurus again.

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Originally Posted by rickv100

I will fix it myself and not bother the gurus again.

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Rick, dont let them bully you around.

Please stay the course. Your success can be shared with others.

as for you guru's... Its not me, once again that is wrong. I simply pointed out that Skennerton implies otherwise and to validate your own opinions on the matter its indicated both ways.

God forbid he should have to come on this forum and deffend himself.

wern't sniper rifles issued with two magazines?

Rick, The only stupid question is the one you DON'T ask. I've adjusted the feed lips on a few Lee rifles in my time too. No where near as many as the experienced MoD and DnD Armourers on this site who maintained and carried these rifles day in, day out during their careers but more than I can count. It is an easy fix if you just take a deep breath and look at what's happening during the feeding process. Peter is correct about the left front feed lip. Use a good pair of smooth jaw pliers and just tweak it a little at a time and try it with Mk.7 dummy rounds. Please don't get offended by anyone. It's not the intent I assure you. Be happy we have the guys with experience that take the time to post here. Something many other forums don't have and never will. Now fix the dang thing and give us a report! Brian :)

---------- Post added at 06:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 PM ----------

Almost forgot: I always get a chuckle from the folks who think soldiers carried spare Enfield mags in their kit. It just isn't so. It was a totally different weapons related doctrine than what we think of now carrying SLR's. One properly fitted magazine was all that was required. I have to make a shameless plug too. Buy one of the 1948 No.4 Infantry Training Pams I have for sale. It's all there. If you buy a rifle from me I'll throw one in for free!!

---------- Post added at 06:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:21 PM ----------

Mike, Nope, sniper rifles weren't issued with two magazines. It's not in the CES. The magazine was never intended to be removed except for maintenance.

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Originally Posted by rickv100

I will fix it myself and not bother the gurus again.

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Ok then...

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Originally Posted by mike16

wern't sniper rifles issued with two magazines?

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Nope, just one...

So... Skennerton is wrong?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Once again Mike, let's not get into a long winded discussion here

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absolutely not. not like the irish thing.

I merely stated what I read and quoted the source. your issue, should you have one. is with that source NOT ME.

so yea its not going to be long winded.

Rick, theres nothing wrong with having two magazines that work in your rifle.

There's nothing wrong with him having 6, that wasn't what was being said though. Personally I'd grab about every one that came by and hold on to them for emergencies. Like trying to trouble shoot...

The Lee Enfield was never issued with a spare magazine however the Lee Metford Mk1 was & that was only at the very beginning as the mags were order to be returned to stores in iirc 1891
The No4 had some issues with magazines that would only accept 9 rounds but they did not issue a spare mag but they did issue special instructions on loading them.

I'll have to discuss this with Ian S. the next time he visits. He's about due since it been a few years! It won't be the first time we've had a disagreement either but I still consider him a friend! As for multiple mags, buy all you can afford if you want. They ain't making them anymore. That doesn't change the facts though.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Almost forgot: I always get a chuckle from the folks who think soldiers carried spare Enfield mags in their kit. It just isn't so

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Brian, dont want to get into it with you again either. But I ask you,in all honesty can you speak for every soldier. ...from 1889 until now?

My reference above to the browning and the m4 was gently and gracefully let some people down without hurting the thread. or getting it closed because correcting feed lips could be important to some of us and thats the subject of this thread. I only introduced the option to own a second magazine, one that works.... to compare what might be done to fix another. my refference to mine and others experince was to maybe alert those who continue to be abitrary and subjective in thier opinion.

I completly understand and agree with your statement " one properly fitted magazine was all that was required" but the reality of combat May.....may ....may reflect another choice for troops in combat. it is remotely possible that some might have carried a second magazine. They may have been sold with two, they may have been issued with two, and soldiers might have obtained a second by some other means. I'm not discounting a letter/memo that states otherwise. I just reminding all who read this, never say never and never say always. and the rules go right out the window once the shooting starts.

I hope we can all put these things in a rational perspective. and stop being so extream and inflexible in our opinions. and this is no reflextion on you Brian. I would rather be chuckling right along with you . wrong (?) or right. really does not matter.

If there continues to remain an issue about how many magazines were issued at various times. then take it up with the author. I was only trying to expand the foundation for additional information. I still feel that Skennerton is right. just an opinion, not a weapon.

---------- Post added at 09:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

There's nothing wrong with him having 6, that wasn't what was being said though. Personally I'd grab about every one that came by and hold on to them for emergencies. Like trying to trouble shoot...

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and I agree with you there. I would buy 5 or 6 .try them unmodified in my rifle. if they feed all 10 rounds reliably I keep them. if not I offer them to others where they may , for some reason work in thier rifle. enfields are kinda that way. we all know that. it makes owning one so much "fun".

I think Ricks delema is that his is numbers matching magazine and mods to make it work are required.

and yep, they aint cheap

Final? thing. these magazines were designed to work with ONE cartridge; good, old Mk7 Ball.

Any loading that uses a bullet with a different profile (length AND/OR ogive) WILL give trouble.

Those of us driving .303-based wildcats are especially aware of the "ammo" issue; the rifles (and mags) were built around the ammo. Changing to a .25" wildcat, especially one on a slightly shortened case, can provide "interesting times".

The issue of "cartridge retention" when the mag is removed from the rifle should never arise. The magazine of the era was seen as a "reserve" storage (the term "magazine" was borrowed from the places used for storage of LARGE quantities of ammo and propellants). This is borne out by the fitting of "cut-off" devices to Lee Metfords and Enfields right up to the 1930s. The absence / removal of the cut-off from the Mk3 * was a wartime "expedient", hence the "*", instead of progressing to a new "Mark". Note also that the U.S. 1903 Springfield and (Krag) are fitted with a magazine cut-off, albeit a device which limits the rearward travel of the bolt, rather than an occluding plate.

ALL magazine systems were filled by individual rounds, and later, chargers. With VERY few exceptions (Krag rifles, for starters), they were emptied by shuffling the bolt 'til the mag was empty, (firing, or not, as required). Emptying a mag in that fashion these days, especially with self-loaders, would rightly give instructors / NCOs conniptions. (Can we all say "Negligent Discharge"?) Besides which, mag and rifle design have both come a long way in that time.

Note that Mel Johnson's eclectic rifle used a rotary internal mag that could be topped up at any time, with either single rounds or chargers, without having to open the action OR remove the magazine.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

They ain't making them anymore. That doesn't change the facts though.

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I think they are. dont look like origonals, I seen them for sale in those cheaper than dirt catologs. Not cheap at least not like dirt, but I think they are.

What we have here is called a “troll” in forum land. Urban Dictionary: troll

You’re not supposed to feed it.

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Originally Posted by mike16

the browning and the m4

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What's that got to do with a #4?

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Originally Posted by Vincent

what we have here is called a “troll” in forum land.

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Sounds like...trolling...

Anyway as a parting shot the mag will eventually be fixed and ricky100 take it from the person that has been fried more times on this site that USA has fried eggs "take it with a grain of salt" there are really genuine people here that offer their advice from the experience chart.
Now my nik was gained from..............!

No offence taken Ricky but you are making a mountain out of a molehill here. It really is a simple 2 minute fix. You are being told of palliatives and the cure is staring you in the face.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

No offence taken Ricky but you are making a mountain out of a molehill here. It really is a simple 2 minute fix. You are being told of palliatives and the cure is staring you in the face.

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I could not agree more Peter. I put up with an unreliable last round feed from my No.4 for years - due to being bone idle.

One day I sat down (as advised above and on umpteen other threads) and watched it carefully. The last round was getting hung up on the lip under the breech due to magazine not seating correctly. That fault was easily fixed because it was caused by a magazine lip not allowing the magazine go go home fully. Having fixed that, the tiniest of lip tweaks got the rifle feeding reliably - which it has done ever since.

The lessons learned: 1. Try feeding a drill round and WATCH CAREFULLY what actually happens. 2. Only remove the magazine for cleaning, those lips aren't made to suffer the wear and tear of being changed like a modern rifle or left unprotected out of the magazine well.

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Originally Posted by rickv100

Here are some photos of the Lee Enfield jamming. Nose up on the last round

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RickV100
Thanks for the pics on the last round jamming. I took a look at three No.4's that I have in my collection that feed perfectly. From what I can see, your feedlips are far too wide spread. The photo below will show you how mine are set (others please chime in if yours are substantially different -- I'm not the real expert here)
https://www.milsurps.com/vbpgimage.p...4&d=1440784075
Here's what happens as you close the bolt:

First, the bullet nose begins to move under the feed lip, holding the nose down. As it does, the feed lip directs the bullet nose into the funneling slide at the bottom entrance to the chamber.
(Rick, from what I can see, your feed lips, being too spread apart, are releasing the nose far too early, causing the cocking of the bullet into the side-wall and jamming.)

Second, the bolt moves the cartridge forward and the neck of the cartridge (~.335" diameter) escapes through the feed lips (~.345-.350" apart). At this stage the point of the bullet has already contacted the funneling slide and is being guided to enter the chamber. (I checked another mag and the feed lips were .40" apart. The last round fed ok using a quick, snappy motion. But if I slow-motioned ramming the bolt home, it cocked just like yours.)

Third, the taper of the cartridge then rides UP on TOP of the feed lips as it enters the chamber. The nose of the bullet should already be inside the chamber at this point. The bolt then finishes driving the cartridge home.

Notice, (see photo) the right and left feed lips on my mags were not diametrically the same height -- the right feed lip is lower than the left. (I don't know if this is a coincidence or by design, but all the mags I tested exhibited this trait.)

Hope this helps, Robert
Please PM me if you need to talk this out.

With the greatest respect Seaspriter and with the best will in the world you are complicating and making a mountain out of a molehill for what is a very simple 2 minute issue that the average most junior Armourer would be taking in his stride every day of the week. This subject has already been aired in some depth many, many times over the years on the forum. Every magazine and rifle has its own traits and vagaries. It's the nature of the beast and the very reason why the magazine was numbered to the rifle

Anyone, please feel to send in the mortars - but it really is just a simple case of the feed lips directing the projectile while the cartridge is in what we call the twilight zone. And we've gone past 4 pages and into page 5 already for want of adjusting ONE feed lip!

Sorry to bump this thread, but it was the one I found searching to solve my misfeeding issues on my No.5, usually on the 1st, 3rd or 7th round, but thanks to Peter L's explanations :bow: and I think I've solved it now with a bit of mag tab tweeking.