Burke, Desmond T.: (970). Canadian Bisley Shooting, An Art and a Science.

Does anybody have a copy of this book?

Reference was made to this book by a publication The Benchrest Shooting Primer (1997)Edited by Dave Brennan, Editor of the late publication Precision Shooting Magazine. On page 231 is a reference to Burke's book. An article on cant "Cant and Group Size" by Jerry Masker makes refference to Burke's publication and to "using the .303 British at 1000 yards".

Needless to say when bench rest shooters in a text on bench rest shooting/reloading make refference to "British .303" and "competative shooting at 1000 yards". it warms my heart.

anyway.....

Burke, Desmond T.
Canadian Bisley Shooting, an Art and a Science
1970 , 213 pgs
Open library.065702881M
LC 701371137

The above information was enough to locate two copiesof this book however......They want 200 dollars per copy......

Does anybody know of this book or have a copy?I recall it being refered to in the past, perhaps by this forum. Did a search one time and thought I "favorited" it. now....cant find it.

Could someone refernce this book by Burke if its available.if they have a copy could they sumerise its contnt and maybe let us know if its a useful book for tuning the rifles, ammo or shooting style.

Not sure 200 is worth it, but whats 200 worth any more.

anyway. If you have a copy of this book and you would like to summerise is content I would be greatfull.

Thanks

Mike16

First copy is $100 US
Canadian Bisley Shooting, an Art and a Science by Burke - AbeBooks

Try and get a kindle version

Yes, I have it. If you are interested in long range prone shooting it is sort of unique in how he approaches the sport.. He spends a lot of times on shooting technique, very little on the actual technical aspects of 1969 rifles. Two cartridges are considered:

.303 MK VII and
7.62 C21 (7.62 NATO Ball)

At that time the accuracy expected with both was not that far off, something under 2 MOA for ten shot groups out of a rifle was considered pretty good. 1.5 MOA was considered very good. His book reflects a period when the tight barrels had just been introduced and they were still messing around with the ideal twist for the C21/L2A1 cartridge (1 in 10 to 1 in 14 twists).


On shooter technique he spends a lot of time on the score book and that is relevant to today, though you can find other sources that talk about plotting and the various British techniques used to get the best centering of what would today be seen as rather large groups. A lot is still relevant but with the super match cartridges today, be it Palma loads with the Berger 155 or the new sierra 2156 Palma bullet or hot 5.56 loads (US m262 mod 1), the accuracy of the cartridges are such that the old group plotting techniques (with the elevation and wind side plotting sheets have no real place in US style shooting. Bear in mind with Bisley shooting you have time between shots because you have 2 or 3 person shooting on one point, the more extensive plotting methods make use of that time.

That said there is a lot of good information in the above

He spends two chapters on releasing the trigger. There is a bit on the influence of the ear and head on trigger release. Worth reading but I would say perhaps not earth shattering info.


On the shooter physiology he deals with a lot of the limitations on the human eye, though those sections are pretty much obsolete, you can get a better understanding of that by reading many of the modern on line articles which have 45 years of added medical knowledge on the topic.

The main focus technically is on the flight of the bullet and how that flight is affected by Cant, Wind, Cartridge variations and atmospheric considerations. Whereas most articles you used to read in precision shooting that were test based did the testing at a relatively short distance, (200 yards or less) Mr. Burke spends a lot of time on groups that he observed at 300 to 1000 yards. Here the book is pretty much without any other match. for example on can alone he spends 5 chapters, from page 69 to page 116. All I can say is a modern Palma shooter of long range prone shooter would find all that very much worth while.

In particular his chapters on group analysis, with his record keeping techniques go a long way to demonstrating that modern long range shooting can be approached as a science. Said another way, each shot is a carefully analyzed event, much like golf.

If you expect a detailed analysis on the rifles...well it is not there. he mentions all of the stuff on compensation and there is nothing wrong with what he writes, it adds a lot of small details to the history of Bisley shooting from 1923 to 1969, but the book is really directed towards serious prone competitive shooters of 1969, not folks looking backward fondly on older target rifles in the .303 era.

Also try Elements of Rifle Shooting by JA Barlow and AGs Book of the Rifle by A.G. Banks both are 1930s 1940s books on technique and use of the Service Rifle. I'd also look for any articles by Laurie Holland on shooting the .303.

robert303, you have those books? or access to them?

by a strange coincidence just picked up 3 books at local sale today

Esentials of Marksmanhip EGB Reynolds 1964
A.G. s Book of the Rifle AG Banks 1958
the Elements of Rifle Shooting Brigadier J A Barlow 1958

Lovely ols Bisely type stuff!

I have those books, what would you like to know?

AG's Book Of The Rifle and his Random Writings On Rifle Shooting must have sold fairly well - second-hand copies can often be seen at gun shows here. They were mostly reprints of his articles in The Rifleman in the '30s and '40s and as such mostly (but not all) covered rimfire shooting and Home Guard shooting.

Success in Prone Rifle Target Shooting Skills & Coaching Aids by John W Jackson believe this was published privately here in Victoria BC. There is no publisher information that I can find but its very good.

can these and other books be scanned and submitted to our "Lee Enfield Knowlege Library Collection" . If someone were willing to lend me these books secured by a refundable deposit I would gladly volunteer the effort to scan them and submit them.

Might be a copyright issue to consider, as with at least Demond Burks book, he passed in 1973 if my memory serves me correctly. Good old Ed Horton ran into that problem years ago with Sweets books, the copyright had not expired yet.

"AG's Book of the rifle" and AG Banks "Random writings on rifle shootigng" are both well read in my library.

here are some more current books that may bring your lee enfield shooting experience up to date

Remeber! Its only a suggestion

On reloading;

Precision and Reloading Guide 2nd edition 2005 edited by Dave Brennan and published by the late grate publisher, Precision Shooting magazine.

Matellic Cartridge Handloading, The Persuit of the Perfect Cartidge, 2013, M.L."Mic" McPherson, published by Safari Press


One of these two are on shooting bench rest in general but Wadham's is all about the Lee Enfield

The 2012 Complete Book on Lee Enfield Accurizing, 2012, Roger Wedham.

The Benchrest Shooting Primer; Precision Shooting Magazine 1982-1996,2011. Edited by Dave Brennan editor of Precision Shooting Magazine

Also

From Author and Engineer Bryan Litz of Applied Ballistics LLC:

some excellent books and video's

Books

Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting

Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting

Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets

Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting vol's I and II

The Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting comes with a very handy program that allows you to do some serious calculations with ease pop it in your computer, plug in your numbers and bingo!

The DVD series includes a 3 disc instructional set and a complimentary additional dvd

Putting Rounds On Target with Bryan Litz 3 dvd set

and

complemenary dvd

Long Range Competition: Its Worth It.

The two books mentioned above published and edited by Dave Brennan through Precision Shooting magazine are no longer available, Too bad because he published some impressive books. Maybe Ebay or Amazon. every one I know who has these two books kinda laugh when I ask if they are for sale.

Mic's reloading book is also increadable and still available

Bryan Litz need no introduction, His books are difinitive in the shooting industry. And currently available

If I was short of cash I would buyWedhams Lee Enfield book, Mic reloading book and Bryans books and dvd.

Bryan Litz also has some excellent You Tube video's

and an excellent web site, Applied Ballistics LLC.com

none of these books are more than 13 years old

Nuff said

mike16,

Have you looked in the Knowledge Library ? link below should get you there

https://www.milsurps.com/list.php?r=.../Books-(All)/1

knowledge library?

published by Precision Shooting magazine

Rifle Accuracy Facts, published in 2009 by Precision Shooting magazine, and Written by Harold R. Vaughn.

Sadly, this book is no longer available except in the used book market, Amazon or Ebay.

but its another top 10.

It is interesting because through this book you recognise much of what the Fulton boys and the Parker-Hale gang were trying to do and succeeding. Vaughn even recommends the cardboard with graphite bedding technique.

A century or so later Ballistic Engineers working for organisations like NASA, Ames Research labratory, DARPA and Lockhheed-Martin pretty much confirm the genius of the team that designed the Lee-Metford/Enfield. It was never in doubt but its nice to have your beliefs confirmed by qualified engineers using modern test equipment and analysis.

Nicer still because the information is shared and that makes it available to us.

Good to hear it. Somebody should mention them to that blowhard who was mouthing off about 'obsolete sources' around here a while back.

Shoot to Live by Johnson is a great book for the fundamentals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mk VII

Good to hear it. Somebody should mention them to that blowhard who was mouthing off about 'obsolete sources' around here a while back.

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Guilty as charged

I did a price check on those obsolete sources. You could pretty much buy every book I recommended for less that the cost of those top three of those obsolete sources. I would have to buy them on three different continents over a 2 year period for an awful lot of money. talk about a slow learner!!

The sources are obsolete, the recommendations in them are not so much.

I'm not that control freek or gate keeper. I like a level playing field because almost every one on this site either shoots thier rifle or will shoot it soon enough. and we all want them to shoot better. I dont seek power by keeping everyone else ignorant. I like an intelligent informed dialogue. If we cant afford those obsolete sources and nobody is willing to share them then why not look elsewhere? More sources. current sources, available sources, affordable sources. How is this a bad thing?

Roger Wedham's book is a summation of those obsolete sources and is available from him as a digital down load. Cheap, available and very informative. Because it was available to me I was able to recognise and appriciate the other sources I now recommend. If I waited until I could afford those obsolete sources and if they were even available....I would still be waiting. and I would not yet have been able to recognise where the fulton/parker-hale evolution was going. they are a point. we need additional point to draw a line in a direction. These current sources are those additional points. Take it or leave it but dont deny it to others.

Can you imagine a 1st grade student who wants to learn how to read, coming up to thier teacher and asking her to teach him to read and she tells him " tell me what you need to read".

I have taught every grade level from pre-school through university. everything from the three "r's", special education, ESL through university level engineering class'. I cannot imagine where I would be or where my students would be today if I was only taught to read what I my self though I needed to read as a 1st grader. Knowledge is the greatest leveler of the playing field. That loss of power scares some gate keepers....alot.

I too am that Blowhard.

Guilty as charged.

Mike 16,

I know I am not your favorite commenter, but I would point out a number of these sources are available for free here. They are by no means obsolete.


Reynolds book, lots of technical details on service bedding, accuracy, compensation, etc

https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...-Reynolds-1960

1965 DCRA bedding notes, lots of info on setting up center-bedded rifles for 303 and 7.62

https://www.milsurps.com/content.php....4-Rifle)-1965

How to redo the draws, one of the common things folks need to repair:

https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...-Peter-Laidler)

On the target sights:

https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...stment-and-Use


Excellent training manual for shooting the No4 prone:

https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...Enfield-Rifle-)


Thread with a lot of notes of regulated No 1 rifles

https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...ed.-(By-RJW-NZ)


1945 Armourer notes, lots of neat items here:

https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...-Peter-Laidler)



Now there might be more than the above relevant to to that arm which is the envy of the western democracies (the Lee Enfield rifle)


The point is, the modern sources while good for general rifles do not have a lot of the relevant information required for specific work on the Lee Enfield. Certainly they lack much of the 60 odd years of gunsmith/armourer techniques to make these rifles shoot well. For example if one was interested in trying to shoot No 1 or No 4 at long range (800 to 1000 yards), the information on compensation is only to be found in these old sources (including precautions one must take when it rains).

To relearn what these old sources knew would take a lot of time, which can be shortened by simply reading them, which in turn keeps this arcane knowledge alive for another generation. Much like Ned Roberts did with muzzle loaders in the 1920s.

Just something to ponder.

thier teacher. Pre- school to university? WTF!

I bought the Sweets book , paid too much.110$ very disdapointed,Went shopping for the Bisley book, 200$ plus 34$ shipping from England. No Way! Save it for those collectors of books, facts and minutiae.Wendams book, Mic's book are excellent choice's. They are not at all general.Nor are any of Litz's books.they add much information to that 60 years of armourers knowledge/technique. you can understand now what was not clearly understood or unstated back then. I bought Litz books as a bundle from his web site about 270$. an excellent investment. Nor are they "general".

Compensated is only one subject area of many. If you shoot handloaded ammo, its irrelevant. So we move forward.

I would like to add G. David Tubbs "high Power Rifle" to this list if you are a shooter. Used I paid about 5 $.and Rinkers 'Understanding Firearms Ballistics"

Roger wedhams book general? Oh Ok.

anyway, Roger also does some excellent video's on You Tube as well.

yea, those books are expensive, and shipping can be a deal breaker too. And then you gotta cross your fingers and hope nothing gets "lost in the mail". And then there is buyers remorse when you get that confetti in your hands.

Also some of these publications are available on line and or in the public domain, But a few might be there in violation of various copyright laws. That hurts us all and this hobby,

Those that are there lawfully and available to us , well that information is dated and scattered, plus some publications are just the same information carried over, and over from decade to decade so if thats the case why buy several books that have the same information when its best to simply get the most current one,

Thats why I recommend getting the latest information rather than simply getting every book that was ever written. Plus I like to support Rogers for his significant effort and contribution, KUDO'S Roger!

which brings up another good point, What if the old books are not even available , Then what?

yea, Current information is what is best. Thats Roger Wedhams book and his video's on you tube. Excellent. Lets support him and respect those copyright laws too please.

Rogers book is a consolidation of alot of scattered information and an intelligent analysis of several Fulton and Parker Hale rifles. If that too general then I'm not sure some people will ever be satisfied.

Another excellent source on You Tube is a guy called Tiborassaurus Rex. On repeated occasions he makes reference to some of the novel features of the Lee Enfield. Enourmous amounts of information there.

Take it or leave it.

Dont know what Compensated has to do with a thread on useful books on shooting the Enfield. And they are about shooting the Enfield Not antique book collecting.

I forgot all about Tubb's book, It is an excellent book.

If you shoot your enfield these are some very usefull and excellent books.

Mike 16 If the book hasn't a chapter on compensation your rifle will be a shotgun at the longs. The old books were written in the hay day of these rifles,, the information on how to make them work was current not some bodys idea of what may be the way it was done. There is plenty of that on you tube.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

Mike 16 If the book hasn't a chapter on compensation your rifle will be a shotgun at the longs. The old books were written in the hay day of these rifles,, the information on how to make them work was current not some body's idea of what may be the way it was done. There is plenty of that on you tube.

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well its always somebody's idea of what may be done.IMO its a very narrow view, but its your view and I respect your privilege to express it.

not all the above books deal with compensated barrels but it does not make my "shotgun" less accurate. It does make me seek out more information though.

Its just that with about 50 more years of understanding of why that helps the shooters out. I dont collect antique books. I shoot my rifle and thats what this thread is about.
I believe that several of the books listed above deal with compensation. And as was stated above handloading pretty much makes it irrelevent. Not entirely but many of us move on and embrace the understanding of why

Its just a list of books, why are you guy's so scared. Its just ink on paper. dont be scared.
Nuff said

Mike16 I am not scared of books. I am scared of people writing books or making videos on subjects they have little knowledge of when people who did know wrote their knowledge down for others to learn from. A period maintenance manual/workshop book or a paper written by someone who dosent know what an Enfield inch is being read by somebody who thinks an inch is an inch. There is nothing new in the new print/videos the old guys hadn't tried already. They had taken the L E to the maximum with new rifles. You are just trying to get close with much older probably worn beyond possibility of achieving rifles without the correct L E gauges.
I am very lucky to know some Military trained armourers from the period of the L E who went on into the target shooting sport.

Its about books that help us shoot the rifle better.

why do you think its about a compensated barrel.

do you use ammo from that era in competition or do you hand load using modern powder, cartridge, projectile and primer, The data you use, presuming you reload or hand load, that data, is it current or is it information available back in the day?

if people then wrote the information down for others to learn from then, why is it so frightening that people are still writing down information in the hopes that other people will learn from it too; currently. Why does that scare some people. Current era, current information? makes sense to me, handloaders and the vendors who sell hand loading products. Kind of a safety issue to some of us. And you are against this because....?

its not about whether the info is new and untried nor is it really about the fact that its old hat. its about making the information available and affordable. why dont some people get that.

if you dont know if whether or which book might have information on compensated barrels. you should get copies of them and read them. who know's. if you can, it might improve the shooting ability of yourself and or your rifle. And if not: why deny it to the rest of us, take it or leave it but allow us to aquire that knowledge. Dont make choices for me. I dont know how others feel about this but Dont make choices for me. Thanks anyway, I'm sure you had my best intentions in mind. but dont. Other may speek for themselves.

Infield Inch? so we're done talking about the usefulness of current publications and you want to talk about "the enfield inch" Gee, I hope your not reffering to that book that was published.....when? well, no to long ago anyway. Maybe PM me on that so we can keep this about current publications that are available and affordable to OTHERS. Ditto on that compensated barrel subject. PM me. Or start another thread.

the fact that you state that there is nothing new pretty much underscores the reason your so against any new information getting out there. Dont feel bad.....I do that too.... to the competition that gets too close. I do it to steer them away from any ideas that make them a threat to me on the range. I get that.I steer the competition in rabbit hole directions. informally; but I do it too. So yea I get that.

But this thread is not on the range, its a forum, in the Lee Enfield Knowledge Library. and not all library's have only old books and old information, and if its just a rehash of the same information then where's the harm. If there is nothing new under the sun then why so scared. what the fear of rehashing old information. It would not be control would it.

it may or may not be new information (it absolutely is) but at least its available and affordable. I want to spend my money shooting my rifle, not colleting antique books I cannot afford or are not available at any price. But thats just me and a whole lot of others.

And your presumption that I'm shooting a worn out old rifle.....Based on what information? we're not talking about current publications any more are we? and is that the reason you are so against other people on this website obtaining information that allows them to shoot thier rifle better. Because you think my rifle is worn out?

as for the guages? I'm once again going to assume we are no longer dealing with books that will help us shoot our rifle better, and so have changed the subject. perhaps you could pm me on the whole guage thing or start another thread of your own on that.

Clearly, like those unread books you critique, those you tube video's, you ought to see some of them too. ...or not. Your right, they did not have you tube back then, and thats a very good reason to put yourself at a disadvantage on the range. but why others? i DONT get that. scared to be alone?

I'm lucky to know several of the authors who wrote the books myself and others informally so I cant brag like you are. But again, is it a thread about who we know or books that will help members here on the Lee Enfield Knowledge LIBRARY be able to shoot thier rifle better?

Why do some feel they must make that choice for me and on my behalf?

thanks but I think I got this.

its about books that help us shoot our rifle better, and if it helps others shoot thier rifle better, thats a bad thing because...?

OH but thanks for your contribution. You have greatly enhanced the quality of all contributions to the Lee Enfield Knowlege LIBRARY

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mike16

Its about books that help us shoot the rifle better.

why do you think its about a compensated barrel.

do you use ammo from that era in competition or do you hand load using modern powder, cartridge, projectile and primer, The data you use, presuming you reload or hand load, that data, is it current or is it information available back in the day?

if people then wrote the information down for others to learn from then, why is it so frightening that people are still writing down information in the hopes that other people will learn from it too; currently. Why does that scare some people. Current era, current information? makes sense to me, handloaders and the vendors who sell hand loading products. Kind of a safety issue to some of us. And you are against this because....?

its not about whether the info is new and untried nor is it really about the fact that its old hat. its about making the information available and affordable. why dont some people get that.

if you dont know if whether or which book might have information on compensated barrels. you should get copies of them and read them. who know's. if you can, it might improve the shooting ability of yourself and or your rifle. And if not: why deny it to the rest of us, take it or leave it but allow us to aquire that knowledge. Dont make choices for me. I dont know how others feel about this but Dont make choices for me. Thanks anyway, I'm sure you had my best intentions in mind. but dont. Other may speek for themselves.

Infield Inch? so we're done talking about the usefulness of current publications and you want to talk about "the enfield inch" Gee, I hope your not reffering to that book that was published.....when? well, no to long ago anyway. Maybe PM me on that so we can keep this about current publications that are available and affordable to OTHERS. Ditto on that compensated barrel subject. PM me. Or start another thread.

the fact that you state that there is nothing new pretty much underscores the reason your so against any new information getting out there. Dont feel bad.....I do that too.... to the competition that gets too close. I do it to steer them away from any ideas that make them a threat to me on the range. I get that.I steer the competition in rabbit hole directions. informally; but I do it too. So yea I get that.

But this thread is not on the range, its a forum, in the Lee Enfield Knowledge Library. and not all library's have only old books and old information, and if its just a rehash of the same information then where's the harm. If there is nothing new under the sun then why so scared. what the fear of rehashing old information. It would not be control would it.

it may or may not be new information (it absolutely is) but at least its available and affordable. I want to spend my money shooting my rifle, not colleting antique books I cannot afford or are not available at any price. But thats just me and a whole lot of others.

And your presumption that I'm shooting a worn out old rifle.....Based on what information? we're not talking about current publications any more are we? and is that the reason you are so against other people on this website obtaining information that allows them to shoot thier rifle better. Because you think my rifle is worn out?

as for the guages? I'm once again going to assume we are no longer dealing with books that will help us shoot our rifle better, and so have changed the subject. perhaps you could pm me on the whole guage thing or start another thread of your own on that.

Clearly, like those unread books you critique, those you tube video's, you ought to see some of them too. ...or not. Your right, they did not have you tube back then, and thats a very good reason to put yourself at a disadvantage on the range. but why others? i DONT get that. scared to be alone?

I'm lucky to know several of the authors who wrote the books myself and others informally so I cant brag like you are. But again, is it a thread about who we know or books that will help members here on the Lee Enfield Knowledge LIBRARY be able to shoot thier rifle better?

Why do some feel they must make that choice for me and on my behalf?

thanks but I think I got this.

its about books that help us shoot our rifle better, and if it helps others shoot thier rifle better, thats a bad thing because...?

OH but thanks for your contribution. You have greatly enhanced the quality of all contributions to the Lee Enfield Knowlege LIBRARY

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I have replied to this post twice with nothing showing up. Both long posts.
The lack of knowledge shown is unfortunate as is the presumptions made.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

I have replied to this post twice with nothing showing up. Both long posts.
The lack of knowledge shown is unfortunate as is the presumptions made.

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I'm trying to correct that unfortunate lack of knowledge shown as I am sure you are(?).

As for the presumption made, my shooter is one of those still in the wrap 4/2's that is no longer still in the wrap.

Perhaps you could list some of the sources you refer to. It cant hurt.

PM sent.

Is it just me, or are others tired of this verbal too and throughing?
There's a similar one on the Martini forum on Gunboards, I'd suggest that you except that there will be differences of opinion and just let it rest.:thdown:

I'm almost afraid to suggest that David Tubb's has an excellent two part video ......on you tube...... on handloading. Its dated material (1993?) so that should make some of us happy, and its useful and informative so that should make others happy too.

Win-win