S&B on the L42A1

Picked up what I belive to be an original mount for the L42A1 to mount the S&B. I know there are some more recent reproductions on the market. This one came out of a collection and is reported to have been purchased many years ago. Either way, I paid a bit over the new reproduction price. The machine marks on the mount are a little rough and it has an aged look about it. The parkerizing has turned that nice greenish color. Here are a couple of shots. The scope is so clear. I wished I had an L96A1 to put under this scope. I have the L96A1 mount for this scope as well. The scope is stamped with the AI serial number.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ffqrr4zr-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...j4fqzkfq-1.jpg

Mmmmmmmm Have you fired that rifle with that telescope in that position yet? You are going to get an eyeful of telescope! The ocular lens is too far to the rear - there is no eye relief!

Never had a problem with eye relief on mine Peter! Been shooting it for years with the S&B fitted!

Hi Brian,

Nice rig. Your scope is one of the later produced scopes as its of the darker green and has the plastic ocular ring opposed to the original alloy with knurled grippy finish. I have a good mate who has just recently purchased an original bracket for a considerable sum, well over the repro price. The problem I think with those brackets is small batches of repro's have been trickling through over the last twenty years so even the early repro's are now starting to look old and original. No markings of any kind compound the problem of positively identifying what real and what's not.

Brian,
I think its also worth noting your bracket is the Royal Marine design with thumb wheels as the Special Air Service brackets had allan key fittings.

Its not the Royal Marine type Chosenman! There a different shape behind the rear ring. The thumbwheels and Allen bolts are interchangeable so depending on what style you prefer, you fit! One dealer selling repro brackets offers both styles.

Colin. I think you'll find it was the RM's who first had the light bulb moment and produced the bracket using the original 32 bracket from an L42 as the basis for design. The SAS came on to the idea later and revised the design and fitted allan key fixtures for whatever reason. Fact is, RM's plumbed for thumb wheels and chose not to deviate from the original bracket design to much and the Air Service played with the concept a little so as not to be seen as adopting a RM idea I would suspect. They like to be different.

---------- Post added at 11:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 AM ----------

Just thinking about it. A while ago I had the conversation with an ex Air Service guy I know who actually gave away two of these brackets!!!! I recall him saying the reason the Air Service went with the allan key fitting method instead of thumb wheels was linked to their parachuting techniques. The thumb wheels got in the way and weren't 100% reliable in staying tight.

Attachment 64963

Attachment 64964

Both styles of bracket, Top is "SAS" bottom is "Marine"
Slightly different shapes plus "SAS" type uses cap head craddle screws and the "Marine" type uses the old tappered craddle screws.
Using Allen bolts seems a bad idea! In an emergency, how you gonna get the scope off if you loose that 3/16ths allen key!

I agree, but you cant change history, that's what they did.

I'm bound to ask just how far back can your eye be XL? It's got to be 2" or so from the ocular lens to get the full optical picture so based on the rifle above, that's putting your eye level with the rear of the bolt. That seems to be so unergonomic (is that a word?) on the head and neck while shooting as to be unreal.

The early alloy ocular focussing ring had a replaceable rubber insert that seemed to be made of a sort of plastercine! The later one on the tele shown on thread 1 was better.......but....... The housing it was on couldn't be fitted into the earlier telescopes!

I don't think the knurled thumbscrews v. allen bolts were an identifying feature per se. Just a matter of being ill informed if you were unwise enough to use allen bolts. That's because the mild steel thumb screws shafts were designed so that you only tighten to thumb/finger tightness otherwise they'd shear and not just strip the front thread. And if you give a crunchie the tools and wherewithall to overtighten something, then guess what he WILL do?

I was a paratrooper and for the life of me cannot see what allen bolt/1" diameter thumbwheel will do to affect parachuting techniques!

I can see where this is going but as a bloke from the bleedin' obvious school of life I feel that there might be a degree of urban myth creeping in here. AQnyone remember the horse manure surrounding the special black SAS and Marine lens caps......... Just a minute while I phone up Steve XXX one of the RM Armourers.............

Just had a long and interesting conversation with one of my old, long serving, now retired RM Armourer colleagues. L42's were his bread and butter since they came on stream and it was he who went on to teach REME/RM the then new L96 at Lympstone/Plymouth and Bordon. Sent him the pictures of the mounts and guess what? Nope, never seen them in RM service and has no record or mention of them in his records. In fact, as soon as he saw the pictures his comments about eye relief were exactly the same as mine. However, he did accept that there were trials during the time - NOT concerning the RM - of another but more complicated US made telescope (which he called the Leatherman!)

Has anyone out there got documented or substantiated proof of an RM connection using this bracket?

The repro L42/S&B project that I've been working on is progressing well,
(see: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=51921)
there's still a handfull of little things left to do before I'd call it finished, but its well usable in its current state.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8/DFtqSG-1.jpg

first 5 round group, after fitting scope and visually bore sighting it.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8/VknpSr-1.jpg

on evidence of some groups etc am pretty happy with the bedding/fettling so will start to stain/refinish the cheek piece & handguard to suit the rest (think the repro cheekpiece is oak, hence why its so starkly white in the photos - the camera's sensitivity was turned right up as it was just only a few minutes of being completely dark, makes some of the colours look odd)

Sourced one of those newly available repro extended brackets from the devizes gunsmith in the UK, and was very impressed with its quality. The handguard was probably at the fattest end of savage wartime factory tolerances and wouldn't clear the S&B's larger objective bell, so I judiciously spokeshaved the height down (evenly) and then blended it with a sheet sander.

Of the photos I've seen of this combination mounted on the L42 i.e in some of Skennerton's publications etc some of those 6x42s look to be mounted impossibly low too, so I imagine that depending upon which individual handguard/top wood was fitted this would often have been encountered.

As for the eye relief question I can confirm it's quite adequate as pictured, have taken shots standing, sitting/kneeling, prone unsupported & off a rest - all without issue or injury (it does just look disconcerting initially).

Don't suppose anyones seen/got literature for the L96a1 or L13a1 that might indicate the BDC was set for the same ammo as the L42? I'm guessing correct ammo is the L2a4 Ball? which its stated velocity is a 144gr @ 2850 ft/s - is this correct?
Also does anyone know what the angular subtend is for that fine dot in the centre of the reticle?

Cant say I know much about them but, I understand that they were produced for testing of scopes on the L42 and not produced specifically for the S&B scope, with this in mind and on an engineering point of view surely they would of been all manufactured the same and not in different profiles etc.

Understand any manufacturing process may make alterations to suit production or cut costs, but not a different bracket for individual units. On the subject of manufacture does anyone know were they originated from ?

I agree Big duke. Yes, they were manufactured by a co in Sussex (?) somewhere who used to make several bits of quality bracketry and the like. I don't think it right to mention them.

I agree about the standardisation. Would you make a different GPMG bracket or a butt for the Marines?. The trials teams try to cover all the bases

Thanks all for the comments and additional information. I have yet to shoot the rig as set up and may be a while before I can with the heat here in Southern California. Close to 100 degrees most days. Does that make me a fair weather shooter?

Add 100% humidity and that's what it's been like here in SC all Summer! At least your glasses don't fog up!! :p

Peter I have shot XL39E1’s L42 with “RM mount”, on a number of occasions and the eye relief has never been a problem. I have recently had a shoot with the “SAS mount” set-up as shown in the photos, and as you correctly have said the eye relief is too far back, requiring the head to be almost at the rear of the check piece or a longer rifle butt. I have moved the scope to accommodate a prone shooting position, and my neck is more than thankful for this change!

---------- Post added at 08:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 PM ----------

Don't suppose anyones seen/got literature for the L96a1 or L13a1 that might indicate the BDC was set for the same ammo as the L42? I'm guessing correct ammo is the L2a4 Ball? which its stated velocity is a 144gr @ 2850 ft/s - is this correct?
Also does anyone know what the angular subtend is for that fine dot in the centre of the reticle?[/QUOTE]

you might find some of the information on this link
AI PM 6 x 42 Scopes from L96A1 Rifles Sporting Services

All of our training (except for the first few familiarisation shoots) and right up until the last 19 were withdrawn from the sniper trg wing in 2012 on the L96 was done using Army issue 7.62 RG Green Spot*. As was the L42. So on that basis, yes, the ammo was the same. Neither the range drum or the range graduations, (what you call the bullet drop compensator) were changed to cater for any other ammunition.

During some trials there was an L13 S&B mounted onto an accurised LSW (and a VERY accurate one at that too......). Not enough recoil to give a black eye but the eye relief was insufficient. So an extended bracket was manufactured specifically so that the head/eye would remain in the same comfortable and relative position as it would when using the SUSAT. I cannot imagine that sniper instructors or the trials team would make an exception to this relative head and eye position for the L42/L13 sight. And don't forget that for 90+% of the time the sniper pair are simply making notes and observing. And....., guess what they're using....... telescopes and binos - comfortably!

When the 96's were withdrawn we used up a huge load of this green spot in L4 guns because it didn't have to be de-linked from belts - which wasn't allowed anyway! And plenty of it went down my L42/L96 too

I also have an example of the SAS bracket with L13 scope, I've had no problems shooting it on my L42, in any position over the years. I know I have a "normal" length butt on the L42 and the scope is not fully forward in the bracket either. I'm wondering now if I've a short neck! ☺️

Ok...., OK......, I surrender........... I haven't shot one with a S&B but they LOOK and SCALE UP to be too close to give the correct ocular eye relief that equates equally to the No4T and L42 AND L13 telescope. But I have been whacked with an L42 and it hurt and it bled too AND my pride was hurt.

What I suggest you do is this. Demonstrate the Hawkins position to a group of snipers, Lay right back on and virtually across the bank with very little cover, put the butt in the crook of your arm, grip the front sling loop to give you your elevation, face on the cheekrest, grip tight and pull back on the rifle and shoot - and NOW see if it clears.

Added on Saturday morning: Spoke to Retd Capt Steve Xxxxxxx who was the SASC officer of the training wing at Lympstone where the RM snipers were trained and later a colleague at Warminster where he was also on the ITDU. Nope.... NEVER saw that bracket with the RM or the RM special people. (Coincidentally, he also did the RM sniper course at Lympstone as a Capt just for the experience and to take up a space. And passed!)

The Inf Trg booklet, fig 21 shows the perfect comfortable eye relief using a No4 with No32 but I suppose eye relief, floating image and comfort is in the mind of the beholder - or the shooter. Incidentally, the shooter in the book who is photographed is Dave Cuthbertson. Now well retired and living near Swindon!

I had a picture of an RM with a Leatherwood ART in a similar mount on an Envoy, obviously a trials setup, can't seem to find the bloody pic though now.

I had what was supposed to be one of the ART II scopes on its original L42 bracket years ago, but being a bit on the 'modern' side I sold it to another UK dealer. He's now thinning out his collection so has probably sold it on, or if not, will be doing so in the near future.

Don't bother with that set-up picture Simon. It was a commercially made up rifle and the Marine was simply holding it! Was that the ART and bracket I took back to ITDU who confirmed its trials status DRP? Far too complicated for what a sniper really needs I seem to recall.

I suspect it was Peter, though it's a long time ago now. As you say, rather too complicated......

It was the complicated grat pattern that put the boot into what was expected by all to be the L13 S&B replacement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Simon

I had a picture of an RM with a Leatherwood ART in a similar mount on an Envoy, obviously a trials setup, can't seem to find the bloody pic though now.

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Attachment 65064Attachment 65065

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DanL96a1

Attachment 65064Attachment 65065

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That's the one

Is the Marine holding an Envoy or is it a No8 ?

Whatever it is, it ain't an L42 in either picture! But the trigger in pic 2 certainly looks like it's on a No8. Or is it a hybrid something or other fitted with a No8 trigger mech?!

As much as one can glean from the image the latter

Looking again, it looks like a Marine 2/Lt to me. The sound moderator looks like one of the LIST (yes, that's the man again.....) types that were trialled occasionally when required against a GSR. They had really tough steel wrapped casings to absorb the pressures and also had a little (adjustable?) high pressure gas vent at the rear - that you can see just to the front of the tent pole at the rear of the moderator.

I was looking at some older threads and noticed what I think is an original 1975 L42A1, with an “SAS mount”. This shows it in green with, the classic No.32 pattern thumbscrews, and uses the old tapered cradle screws.

XL39E1 could this be an original SAS mount? Interesting to see the SAS mount not with cap head cradle screws. Also this eye relief is a lot closer to what I have found, to be workable in prone position and in relation to the No.32’s eye relief.


Attachment 65072Attachment 65073Attachment 65074

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XL39E1

Attachment 64963

Attachment 64964

Both styles of bracket, Top is "SAS" bottom is "Marine"
Slightly different shapes plus "SAS" type uses cap head craddle screws and the "Marine" type uses the old tappered craddle screws.
Using Allen bolts seems a bad idea! In an emergency, how you gonna get the scope off if you loose that 3/16ths allen key!

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Don't know, but allen bolts is what mine came with. Probably the other bloke's SMG/AR15 & grenades were for emergencies. :)

So were these "ENVOYS" built on No4(T) actions or actual ENVOYS fitted with pads? In the photo the so-called ENVOY has a flat on the bolt knob and weren't all the ENVOYs built on newish No4 Mk2s with full round bolt knobs?

I'm guessing it's a set of ENVOY wood fitted to a No4(T) action with an RSAF(E) hammer forged barrel.

I don't have one of these mounts but are the ORIGINAL ones threaded to retain the thumbscrews (which have shouldered threads to achieve the same) as per the No4T brackets? If not, then to be honest, allen screws would be a total waste of time. They'd be lost at the very first opportunity!

I can confirm that both our reproductions and my original example (and the other 4 originals I have inspected) have the body of the mount threaded in the same way as the original No32 telescope brackets

That's the answer I needed. In that case, the person who inserted allen bolts in place of thumb screws must have known what he was doing because the allen bolts will have part of the threaded shank machined down so as to enable them to be tightened without fouling the threaded bracket.

We still haven't come up with documented RM use of the brackets

Or documented proof of SAS use come to that!

I was keeping that back Colin......... Will speak re that.........

RWSENG can you take some pictures of the original SAS mounts or RM Mounts that you can post? I have not been able to locate any "documented" evidence, of the mounts being used by the RM/SAS. I suspect that the trusted reliability, accuracy and battle worthiness of the L42 in certain circles, allowed this development on to the next stage, prior to the L96's full and final deployment.

they have one in the pattern room with a Lyman scope fitted.
Also the RM with the ArtII is Tim Courtney I am told.
Paul

Exactly....... They were formulated and made to trial several types of telescope available at the time

I found the following document, which does mention about the transition period of L42 – L96 on pages 5 – 7. I don’t know how “accurate” this is, but it makes sense the British Army knowing the L42 program was short on No.32 brackets, and No.32 telescopes converting No.71,42,53 to L1A1 standard to fill a stop gap during the 80’s.

It was also becoming clear the parts to keep this going, was becoming less and less as it had been reported the L1A1 scope, seemed to have been showing its age during the Falklands conflict, which start off the trails of which would end up with the L96 come out on top, and the L42 would be fazed out of service.

It seems logical that with all this going on at the time, these trails mounts found them self in active service within units who kept the good old trusted L42’s going, it seems possible to me with the Army’s waste not want not attitude these mounts which were sitting on selves gathering dust, being put to good use with the now more readily available Bushnell, Leatherwood ART2, S&B, or Pecar / Tasco scopes around the time of the new conflict in the gulf during the 1990’s.

It seems to me that the SF type units, which tend to have more flexibility than the normal green army units. Might have taken on these mounts and used them to good effect, knowing and trusting the proven reliability, accuracy and battle worthiness of the old L42.

http://thetwilightwar.weebly.com/upl...small_arms.pdf

I wish the author of said 'document' would make it known how you could convert No71's, 42's and 53's to L1A1 standard. In 1981/82 the last of the L42 conversions were still ongoing as we can see by the conversion dates so there wasn't a shortage as such. The rifles and telescopes were showing their age. Mk3/L1A1 telescope spare parts were still in production and available as were some spares and Mk2/1's. As were most No4/L42 parts but there was a reluctance to re-order the special parts. Fore-ends, cheek pieces and handguards were always 'dues-out' and constant patching just made them look shoddy. Strangely, magazines were never in short supply as there were 60,000 produced for a reason that has been told before. Brackets became available but these weren't without their problems as they had to be very accurately matched to the needy rifles in Ordnance.

There was some good ideas put forwards to give the L42 a bit of a longer life but it was at its sell-by date. One good one was to solve the disintegrating front end of the fore-end but time wasn't on its side.

Hmm, I wonder how long it will be until the L42 in Gulf 1 fable rears its head again? Well it must have been true because the headstamp on the 7.62 ammo clearly states L42A1 ;)

Oh Simon, you're going to get the experts going again........... Naughty!

Don't mean to get off subject but does anyone have a link to the documentary that they speak of in this caption?

Illustration 17: Familiarisation shoot with the L42A1 as part
of sniper training. Still from the BBC documentary Sniper!
(1997)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Oh Simon, you're going to get the experts going again........... Naughty!

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Sorry, the voices made me do it :madsmile:

There are some who even believe they were fielded in Afghanistan. Oh boy.

:yikes::yikes:not Afghanistan as well, that rifle gets everywhere, might have been in opposition hands but not ours:D

You've got them all going now Simon...... See wot you've started!

Give it another 15 years and they might just re-issue the L96 again! 😬

They could have bought some from me in 2001-2006!! Dang it. :madsmile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

You've got them all going now Simon...... See wot you've started!

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Wooo Ha Ha Har!!! And with an evil laugh the "Hooded Claw" throws his cloak around himself revealing only his eyes and returns to the shadows. ;)

Look, here's what must be proof positive of the extended life of the L42. The headstamp shows L42A1 it's dated 2003 and in a box that says "Sniper" on it! :madsmile:

Attachment 65317

I mean really what more proof do you need? :lol:

Don't want to pee on your Corn Flakes Si, but the L42 use with the trials bracket and whatever scope etc, I thought was supposed to be in use in the first Gulf War ? Op Desert Storm started, (17 January 1991 – 28 February 1991) remember the start well, I was testing the steering gear on the SS Esso Demetia and heading for Gulf.

So I,m not convinced of course if you find some brass dated 90-91 then its all the evidence needed, there say you could sell that box of rounds with anyone with an L42 and the trials bracket.... its got Sniper on the box and after a few exchange of hands will have more provenience probably than the Brackets...:lol:


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...oDemetia-1.jpg

SIMON............ you're driving them all to the point of distraction now!

Geoff,

I remember the start of Gulf 1 very well myself, I was working in Ulsan, South Korea at the Hyundai Car Plant.


Peter,

Sorry, I promise to behave myself from now on ;)

Cheers,

Si.

Simon were you trading north of the 39th parallel? or getting the copy 32 scopes made?

Paul,

I was commissioning a conveyor and transfer system in the paintshop for the then due to be launched Hyundai Scoupe. I was out there for a few months and enjoyed thoroughly it's a remarkable country.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Simon

enjoyed thoroughly it's a remarkable country.

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It was the place were I found, Original Scottish whiskey "made in Korea" or was it Original Korean Scottish Whiskey "made in Korea", Have a feeling it was Ulsan we pulled into...... or Busan ??? been a few times and paid off there once, never remember much apart from the cold....... must of been something to do with the Whiskey, its never the Beer.

Good Day,
Thanks to Paul, I was able to secure a reproduction "SAS/Royal Marine?" mount for my L42A1 and use it to mount my AI serial number Schmidt & Bender scope.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...wupoiyxw-1.jpg

The mount I received had the Allen keys but I was wanting to exchange it for the No4 (T) style thumbwheels.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...z4vpesat-1.jpg

Has anyone done this with these mounts and know a source for the knurled thumbscrews?
Regards,
Michael

Michael,

Looks great and nice rig as well!! PM incoming on thumb screws.

Brian B

I attended a gun show in Whitehorse, Yukon Territory two years ago where I purchased a No32 MK1 scope that was sitting in a pair of rings. The scope had been used on a hunting rifle, I guess the fellow who owned it had problems with clearance when trying to mount the scope so he took it to a grinder instead of purchasing some taller rings. You can well imagine........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After the purchase another fellow and I were inspecting the de-bauchery, he in conversation told me he had an original mount at home he would be willing to sell me for $100cdn, I told him to run home and get it I would have the cash waiting. When he returned, the mount he produced was not the normal 32 mount but the SAS/Roal Marine mount as you describe it..........complete with allen screws and scope pads!!!! It was void of any markings but I knew it was Enfield something and appeared to be a high quality unit so I paid the fellow and off I went. Well at least now I know a bit more about my purchase.
The question I would have if putting your mount on an existing rifle such as your L42A1 (with the plan to shoot it and excuse me if I don't have the correct lingo, not an expert in the field) how would you collminate the bore to the mount?? From what I understand, the mount was secured to the pads originally and then the ündersize bore of the rings were machined after to keep mount and bore on the same plane. I guess if one was to shoot the rifle only at one specific distance scope could be adjusted accordingly but what happens if you would want to increase elevation or decrease to shoot at a different distance there would be a accumulation of error on the horizontal plane.
Anyhow someday I may try to make up a usable sniper with the the mount and pads I purchased.
regards.

---------- Post added at 12:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------

Sorry forgot to ask. Just curious what the mount and pads I purchased complete with hardware might be worth on the open market? I assume i did all right!!!

http://www.fultonsofbisley.com/misc/...-the-l42a1-scb

You'll find the mount and pads on this site, with current UK prices

Some may find this interesting, the company who made the repro brackets (or some of them perhaps), an old thread, but relevant

Sniper Rifle Scope Mount -

British Army Lee Enfield No4 (T) L42A1 No 32 Scope Thumbscrews Sniper Rifle | eBay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roy W

Some may find this interesting, the company who made the repro brackets (or some of them perhaps), an old thread, but relevant

Sniper Rifle Scope Mount -

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Funny to see their picture of an unfinished bracket with the screws in from the wrong side ..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bros

I attended a gun show in Whitehorse, Yukon Territory two years ago where I purchased a No32 MK1 scope that was sitting in a pair of rings. The scope had been used on a hunting rifle, I guess the fellow who owned it had problems with clearance when trying to mount the scope so he took it to a grinder instead of purchasing some taller rings. You can well imagine........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After the purchase another fellow and I were inspecting the de-bauchery, he in conversation told me he had an original mount at home he would be willing to sell me for $100cdn, I told him to run home and get it I would have the cash waiting. When he returned, the mount he produced was not the normal 32 mount but the SAS/Roal Marine mount as you describe it..........complete with allen screws and scope pads!!!! It was void of any markings but I knew it was Enfield something and appeared to be a high quality unit so I paid the fellow and off I went. Well at least now I know a bit more about my purchase.
The question I would have if putting your mount on an existing rifle such as your L42A1 (with the plan to shoot it and excuse me if I don't have the correct lingo, not an expert in the field) how would you collminate the bore to the mount?? From what I understand, the mount was secured to the pads originally and then the ündersize bore of the rings were machined after to keep mount and bore on the same plane. I guess if one was to shoot the rifle only at one specific distance scope could be adjusted accordingly but what happens if you would want to increase elevation or decrease to shoot at a different distance there would be a accumulation of error on the horizontal plane.
Anyhow someday I may try to make up a usable sniper with the the mount and pads I purchased.
regards.

---------- Post added at 12:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------

Sorry forgot to ask. Just curious what the mount and pads I purchased complete with hardware might be worth on the open market? I assume i did all right!!!

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Still some gold in the Yukon it seems.
Your best way to find out what they are worth is to put them on ePay and let the market decide.