hi there, a differen type of HT low mount and history??

Hi every one, first time poster on any sight, so hope this one is the right one.

I would be grateful if someone could help me out. My father recently passed away and left me his Low mount 303 sniper rifle. I would love to be able to verify its history but am unsure how to go about in doing so.

Apparently it was used as a station firearm and has some marring on the wrist from a mount in a jeep. It does not have full wood but seems to be finished with a Schnabel fore end very well executed, and to my eyes and also I am one not to tinker with original, looks almost original. My grandfather told me they were sometimes lightened like that in Papua new Guinea???? where he saw service.

I can see the “H” on the wrist and the “H” on the barrel which seems to be exceptional and very shiny. The mount for the scope is a little loose and at some stage it has had a recoil pad fitted. In a way it looks as if it has come from an English gun maker as the changes are subtle and not overly compromising.

All the sights are present and working but it is missing the magazine cut off. The top wood with scallop to allow scope mounting behind the rear sight is also present.



What could I do with this rifle to preserve it, it is not for sale, should I leave as is or could I get a stock and nose cap for it as an option and are these available, can I get the scope serviced. The rifle has a great deal of sentimental value and it would be great to Know its history?



Can anyone assist, your help would be well received, I was looking on web sights re this style of rifle and came across this sight

First up try posting some pic's.
If it is a ridgeedidge HT the serial number will be listed in Skennertons works, so if you can post it, the wrist date and the month/year from the right side of the barrel under the rear top gaurd, we can give you a bit more help.

I will endeavour to post photos ASAP.
For now are these details helpful
Wrist ER, BSACo, 1908, ShtLE 111
H on the stock at wrist, on top, H on Barrel Knox HV on Barrel visible when you lift rear sight
Front scope mount 1394
Scope marked SIGHT TELESCOPIC, PATT 1918, (AUST)/1, B.A.A 3650 GA.
D^D 1945
ALSO some hand engraving which is hard to see
The back of the bolt handle has been peened as has an area on the right hand side of the receiver directly below the front mount
The rear sight is graduated to 2000 and has a button on L/H/S and a wheel on R/H/S for fine adjustment I assume, when you push button the wheel disengages.
The rear sight guard has a visible MA on L/H/S
How do you remove wood between sight and receiver?
I will give any other details needed as required to help identify

Regards

scope brass eyepiece has same number as front mount....1394, rear mount on receiver also is stamped 1394, front mount on receiver is stamped 1394 will this be the same as rifle serial number??
Front sight is stamped WA43 on L/H/S, there is a number 5 under the bolt handle on action, visible when bolt is lifted and pulled back.

What is process for attaching photos please

The rifle SN would be a big help.

Cheers

Mike.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mike1967

The rifle SN would be a big help.

Cheers

Mike.

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I can only surmise that the peening on rear of bolt handle and below front scope mount is where the serial number has been, perhaps if this is what is required to ID the rifle it will remain a mystery. I do know my father used it professionally shooting kangaroos north of Carnarvon in the mid sixties and brought it from a friend originally from Broome. I have been told not to fire it with the scope on, which I won't, however the scope is reasonably clear for its age. if it can be identified in another way, or can I locate the serial number in another area, it would be great to find out. We can only guess as to why the numbers in these locations have been peened, surely there would be other references to the serial#

Compare it with pictures of these two sniper rifles:
Milsurps Knowledge Library - 1916/1945 No.1 MkIII* H.T. Sniper Rifle (Medium Bracket)
Milsurps Knowledge Library - 1917/1945 No.1 MkIII* H.T. Sniper Rifle (Short Bracket)

Attachment 64968Attachment 64967Attachment 64966

some photos , hope this works

seems to have , will try some more

For research purposes and comparisons, check the MKL for hundreds of close up pics displayed for both versions of the HT snipers.

1917/1945 No.1 MkIII* H.T. Sniper Rifle (Short Bracket)

1916/1945 No.1 MkIII* H.T. Sniper Rifle (Medium Bracket)

Hope that helps... :cheers:

Regards,
Doug

Attachment 64969Attachment 64970Attachment 64971

photos showing Schnabel fore end, fore sight and side profile.

It would appear to be a low bracket when comparing scope heights.
After looking at other photos the hand engraving on this scope would appear to be "RIFLE" with the rest extremely difficult to make out

Why don't you just close-up photograph the areas where the numbers would have been and let the forumers try to decipher them against known records. It's called THE WISDOM OF THE CROWD. That's what's important to the blokes who want/need to know! Photos of the odds and sods are all very well but.........

will endeavour to take some better quality photos tomorrow and post here will include all detail that I can.

Attachment 65029Attachment 65030Attachment 65031Attachment 65032Attachment 65033Attachment 65034Attachment 65035

some more photos, are these helpful in identifying the rifle, the date stamp on the barrel is partly obscured by the front mount, 9 4?.
all scop numbers and mounts are the same, hand engraved "RIFLE" faint but visible on scope but number is almost gone I will need a magnifying glass.
Are there other photos I could take that would help with ID?

Attachment 65037Attachment 65038Attachment 65039Attachment 65040Attachment 65036Attachment 65041

some more photos including the peening

The number 5 is underneath the bolt handle on the action

Hi 2pounder.

I have been through my spreadsheets and cross referenced your rifles available details with my lists and narrowed the serial number down to the list below. Best hope at the moment is to take hi res close ups of the peined areas where the serials used to be in hope of making out a digit or two in the blown up image and matching it to one on the list. Also, the hand etched markings on the scope tube will be "RIFLE # xxxxxx" Maybe a hi res pic of that area in good light will show up part of the number. Just for $hits and giggles, have a look at the underside of the rear sight leaf. They were not usually numbered, but I am pretty sure I have seen some that are.
Your rifle displays all the signs to be a genuine HT. Except for the foreend mods and absence of the front handguard and nosecap it looks to be true and correct. There are about a dozen BSA receiver rifles in the 200-odd I have gathered details on, including two others from 1908

Serial number possibilities.....
32981
39926
45611
46247
53284
54427
57845
64174
74545

5322A
26562
26824
42031
42670
45828
2011
19435
20063
20719
25534
30850



58798
64852
82663
83837
84486
2137
4285
9984
36923
44511
69911


For your reading, here is my "canned" history of the Lithgow HT rifles.

HT Brief History.
In 1944 production to fill an order for 2500 telescopic sight SMLE sniper rifles was begun. The order was for 1250 Highmount or “Medium Bracket” and 1250 Lowmount or “Short Bracket” rifles. The scopes, made in Melbourne by A.O.C, (Australian Optics Co) were fitted with rings and base mounts, and supplied as an assembly matched and numbered together.
The vast majority of the rifles were converted from WW1 manufactured rifles. The reason was that they "flexed better due to superior metalurgy". Also the machining tolerences in the actions were tighter originally making them easier to work into an individually fitted and finished unit for accuracy. There have been quite a few British made rifles noted as having been converted, as well as a number of WW2 vintage Lithgows. At the outbreak of WW2, civilian rifle club members were asked to hand in their rifles for the war effort. This is how a lot of already heavy barrelled and bedded WW1 Lithgows came to be in store at the factory
Roughly the process was- inspect the rifle and gauge all parts. Any parts that were within the tolerances set for the HT could be kept. (this is why some civilian range rifles that were handed in at the start of the war could have retained older H barrels, walnut or Queensland maple fore-ends etc). Any parts that were replaced were not needed to be numbered to the rifle as there was a standing order that the HT's were not to be stripped with any other rifle on the bench- no chance of mixing parts on re-assembly. (quite a lot have un-numbered bolts, nosecaps, rear sights etc...) Bolts were lapped to the action, the heavy barrels were fitted and the fore-ends relieved and bedded to the actions. Then they were proof fired, bolt lugs checked again and re-headspaced. They were then tested for accuracy using the standard sights. Any that failed were returned and re-worked (bedded) and tested again. After passing accuracy testing they were machined for the scope mount bases. A numbered scope "set" was fitted (these were used in very close to numerical order as the rifles were made) and re-tested for accuracy. If passed the scope was engraved with the rifle serial number and the finished units were boxed in pairs and sent to store. After a certain date (escapes me at the moment) the cheekpiece (and front triggerguard screw swivel) were added to the job, but not fitted properly. This was to be done at unit armourer level to suit the individual sniper if needed. The rifles already in store had a cheekpiece and screws as well as the swivel tossed into the box.
At the end of WW2, production was cancelled with only 1612 units completed. 1131 Highmounts were done first, then production had switched to Lowmounts in July ’45, completing 481 before cancellation. The total scope production had apparently been complete long before this, so there was most likely nearly 900 left over. 100 of these were used during the FTR, some may have been used as replacements for rifles in service, and a lot were sold off through the gun trade.
During the early fifties, 100 rifles were taken from storage and went through FTR (Factory Thorough Repair) as an exercise for the tradesmen at the factory. All were fitted with scopes from the left-over production, all lowmount.
There have been a number of HT’s come to light that have been re-wooded with authentic parts and fitted with new ’53 dated barrels. It is widely thought that these had seen service in Korea and were refurbished at Base Workshop level on return because the harsh climatic conditions had left the rifles in a poor state.
When the rifles were sold off, quite a lot were delivered or handed out straight from the crate. Being boxed in pairs, with scopes off the rifles in their cases, there was a fifty fifty chance of being given the right scope and case for the rifle. This may have been when a lot ended up with miss-matched scopes.
A lot of HT’s were sold to rifle club members who usually removed the optics and fitted aperture sights. This would help explain the number of scopeless rifles, rifleless scopes and miss-matched sets.

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Originally Posted by 2pounder

the bolt handle

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They definitely wanted this number unreadable.

The problem with centre punched numbers is that they remain illegible forever. Even when forensically examined due to the total destruction of the striations within the steel. Why don't these fraudsters, criminals, cheats and other ner-do-wells just linish the numbers out and then the metallurgists can read the former striation imprints and come up with the stolen engines - and in this case, the rifle number!

I knew Son would come up trumps. Or certainly partly trumps here........... Top of the class Brad!

Thankyou so much for this information. Really enjoyed the process of becoming a forum member. Every time my father came over I would get this rifle out and show him, he loved it. After recently joining the BGRC I have reacquainted myself with this rifle after being exposed to some lovely lee- speeds. The HT as it is points beautifully and is quick to the shoulder. Either scope or open sights come into alignment easily and it is a nice weight to carry with good balance................a great hunting rifle, although I have not hunted with it.
I can imagine something like it being used in early African days.

Very much appreciated the heads up Son and will endeavour to look even more closely after a short trip to the east coast.
I will definitely keep you posted and try for some more photos.
As a matter of interest while looking the other night with the magazine out I noticed some brass shim in the bedding area behind the magazine, will send photos also.
The stock has a filled hole on the underside for end and what appears to be some small letter stamps in stock just ahead of magazine also on underside.

If I wasn't so busy tonight I would have it out to look under the rear sight. maybe tomorrow.

Thanks again and appreciation for igniting my enthusiasm.

Keep as is or source full wood and nose cap???? would need complete stock and any thing else you think missing. would be good to see it as it was, will never part with stock on it though.

Return it to as it originally was. The original fore-end is pretty-well worthless unless it has some sentimental to you.

The filled hole on the underside of the foreend will be where the inner band screw was when it was a standard rifle. The HT had the heavy barrel fitted and this did away with the inner band, so the screw hole was filled with a cedar plug.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Son

....The vast majority of the rifles were converted from WW1 manufactured rifles. The reason was that they "flexed better due to superior metalurgy". Also the machining tolerences in the actions were tighter originally making them easier to work into an individually fitted and finished unit for accuracy.....

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This is rather surprising to say the least. Were Lithgow actions built in peacetime not in all respects superior to anything made during WWI? That defies logic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

This is rather surprising to say the least. Were Lithgow actions built in peacetime not in all respect superior to anything made during WWI? That defies logic.

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The early actions were very well made, basically lovingly made.........in order to show their Brit. masters that they were able to build a good firearm.
In the 1915 campaigns in the desert, the tight tolerences of these rifles was causing a few problems with sticky bolts due to ingress of sand(and later mud in the european battlefields) so the body channel was relieved slightly and the chamber modified to relieve the problems.
This became standard from late 1916, early '17, hence most of the HT's being '15 and '16 actions.

Post war rifles were finished very well, rifles selected for rifle club use post 1934(H pattern) were very tight chambered and incredibly accurate as expected with a heavy barrel and tighter tolerances.

muffett, were all of the lithgow H barrels made to this tighter chamber spec or was it only the inter-war H barrels?

edit, do you know if the tolerance loosening in late '16 applied to the other manufactures?

thanks.

All H barrels were to the tighter specs, can't comment on the other manufacturers, though their chambers were already a bit loose........BSA were the pick of them, but had to conform to the requirements dictated to them, whereas India and Australia had adjusted their manufacturing process to better suit the machinery they had.

given that, would you go for a new old stock lithgow H barrel or a new Lothar Walther H profile barrel for a bitsa build? with the aim of usable accuracy rather than 100% perfect matching numbers collectible.

not that i'm working on a build, just gathering info incase the right rifle doesn't come along.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

All H barrels were to the tighter specs, can't comment on the other manufacturers, though their chambers were already a bit loose........BSA were the pick of them, but had to conform to the requirements dictated to them, whereas India and Australia had adjusted their manufacturing process to better suit the machinery they had.

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And wasn't the Australian SMLE built on mostly US machinery with a reduced amount of hand work compared to the UK production?

The contract to supply the machinery for the Lithgow SAF was awarded to Pratt and Whitney over a couple of bids from England. The basis for that was the quoted production cost per rifle being well under that of the British bids.