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Hi Guys,
picked up this scope at a gun show, it looked British to me and the price tag was right, so I took the chance and brought it home.
The design reminds me of the British PPCo scope, also it has the "British type" reticle - but absolutely no markings anywhere.
Is there someone here who can tell me more on this scope, except that it has civilean mounts on it?
Thanks in advance!
Certainly LOOKS like it. Maybe a commercial one made for the civvy market like lots of other things were. Others with their finger on the pulse will come in quickly..........
The PPCo was a plagiarised & slightly modified version of the Fuess Helios 3. Screw threads were anglicised & the lateral adjustment capstans were added. I have one original Helios 3 marked scope with a British provenance, & I have a couple of transitional Fuess/PPCo scopes, & have seen a number of others over the years. They are generally unmarked, & some bear the capstans & some do not. I have one example that bears the capstans that is fitted with Purdey rings, & know of one fitted with Holland & Holland mounts. I must say however, that all of the transitional scopes I have seen up to now have had the 'short cone' ocular housing, not the 'long cone' variety as does yours.
Are there any signs of military usage such as a broad arrow, a rifle serial, or range drum graduations of 1 to 6 or 1 to 5??
Assuming they accept it there will soon be a reasonably lengthy journal article available on British & Dominion Sniping Equipment of WW1 to the UK shooter/collector fraternity. I'm reluctant to say much more at this stage, but I am hoping to secure the rights for Badger to file the article on milsurps as well. It will then be available to all, such that it is!
ATB.
No markings which I can see. Probably hidden below the scope rings, but didn't want ot desolder them before I know what I have. But thanks for your information Roger. If I understood you correctly you suspect it to be one of the early copies which were indeed British made?
Best way to tell the difference is to use a micrometer and take some dimensional measurements. If it is a Feuss it will be a Metric, 25mm tube etc, if it is a PP Co copy it will be 1" or 25.4mm etc
Good idea, thanks Simon! Will check today and let you know!
That's a good idea Simon, thread 5!
So to finally bring some news with the scope, I managed to pull out my micrometer and measured the tube in several areas. Bingo, everywhere exactly 25mm, so it must be German made!
And turned it around a bit more, measured turning the tube to avoid that I might measure only in dented areas ... a bit more light and HUH? Are those markings? Took out the magnifying glass ... yes, this makes the confusion perfect! The scope tube is hardly readable, but visibly marked "Periscopic Prism" over "Company Ltd" over "London" marked - and measures exactly 25mm is this area aswell!
So, did PPCo probably started producing scopes using German made tubes? Or how can I explain this?
I don't suppose you want to sell it do you, I'll give you a profit?!? That's highly significant find. There is no doubt that PPCo copied & modified the original Fuess design, tweaking & anglicising it a bit, but I'm not aware of any documentation that clarifies at just what point manufacture was taken over in the UK. I have an original Fuess marked scope with British provenance, so we certainly started by using the 'native' German product. I have several transitionals so I'd better go & have another long close look at them!
Since I told you what I paid for it, your offer could be incredibly low and I would still make a profit - was that the suggestion? :madsmile: Just kidding, wanted to express that I wasn't too wrong spending the money on the scope then.
Check your transitional scopes, probably they are also all of a 25mm tube - who knows. AFAIK marked Fuess the scopes on the ocular housing. So probably PPCo removed the original Fuess ocular housing and the focal adjustment (= the parts marked by Fuess), re-engraved the German tube with their markings, and installed a new ocular housing? Just a guess. I might need to get tools to measure the threads and see if they are British or European standard.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...original-1.jpg
Thanks Georg. You can see from the pictures that there's an obvious similarity between the Helios 3 & the scope it morphed into. What you suggest about the manufacturing sequence is quite possible, although at least some of the unmarked types could have been acquired from the UK domestic gun trade, having been bought in before the outbreak of war. It was common practice for one manufacturer to make the item & sell it to another concern who then marked it up as their own. But the honest answer is I don't really know - you could well be right! I have one transitional that has the lateral adjustment capstans, so I'll see whether that is 25mm dead or 25.4. That will be interesting.....
the last lines of the Helios 3 ad seem to indicate that the tube diameter was 25mm, the rear housing 35mm with 8cm eye relief, then between 23cm (short) , 27cm (middle) or 30cm (long) total length.
Does the ad indicate that the extra length is in the main tube, or the ocular housing?
The ad would translate as follows:
"the through his eminent bright and large flat field of view known and widely spread scope "Helios" is supplied in three different lenghts, to at a minimum lenght of the scope allow the many different ways of mounting. The optical power of these models is in particular to the brightness absolutely identical, only the very short model has a bit smaller field of view. Magnification 2,5x to 3x. Diameter of the ocular 35mm, diameter of the tube 25mm, eye relief about 8 cm."
In the table they list model designation, followed by lengh (long/medium/short), the lengh in cm, field of view in %, and the identical price for each of 90 Mark.
below that is written:
"All previously named Fuess scopes are, if not mentioned differently, equipped with "three quater needlecross" as reticle. Upon request the scopes can also - without additional price - be equipped with "wire with dot" and "complete cross". The scopes equipped with reticle No. 2 or 3, as shown on page 61, cost 8.5 Mark more."
So basically they give no information upon the strengh of the tube, would also not be a necessary information for someone thinking of purchasing this scope back then (they do not even name this today!).
Interesting is the name of the reticle, it assumes that the original British reticle was a Fuess invention which the British just overtook.
I would guess that this scope was a WWI capture piece later filed down and refitted with typical claw mounts. The original windage capstans with their dear little holes, into which Pte Atkins was supposed to insert a hat pin or something to make adjustments, were probably discarded with disgust along with the little square washers that fitted under them, and those screws fitted in place.
The drum or 'knob' was probably discarded and replaced with the rather home made looking present one, as the .303 markings would have been useless to the new German (?) owner.
The PPCo. was an abomination and the idea of a German having to use one I find quite sad! ;) Somewhere in some old articles you sent me years ago Roger, I think it was one of the Fultons who was closely involved in sniping in WWI, who said the PPCo. should never have been accepted for service.
I would follow all of your words, that is exactly the same what I expected to be the history of how it came to be this way. But without being sure what the scope itself is, I do not want to start any restoration.
Roger, did you already measure your scopes? And Simon, do you have something to measure aswell?
I think I may have been talking rubbish earlier. I can't believe it but I didn't notice the screws that have replaced the capstans - this with the PPCo engraving, as surpmil has pointed out, means that it is probably a standard PPCo scope that has been civilianised post war. This would fit in with it having a 'long cone' ocular housing. The transitionals I have seen have all been the 'short cone' & also have the flush brass objective housing like the original Fuess, not the slightly proud version on the finalised PPCo. Even so, it's still a great find for the price & I'd give it house room!
I'll measure my example this afternoon - have to dash to help father in law get to a hospital appointment just now. Don't know how I ever had time to work!
As Peter would say........'An' annuverfing..............' I'm a real idiot for forgetting this, having had PPCo bases & rings reproduced on a number of occasions, but the PPCo scope itself is not 1" in diameter - I have measured a number in the past, & they are a tad under an inch. I'm speaking now from memory but I micrometered about half a dozen a while back & they measured around 0.986 to 0.990ish IIRC. This suggests that even when 'anglicised' the scopes were still made to the original Fuess diameter. Aldis scopes IIRC are dead on 1 inch in diameter, but not the PPCo.
So, mystery solved. It's a normal military PPCo which has been sporterized. Could I be able to tell if it once had been on the dovetail PPCo mount, or something else (did they even use the PPCo on something else?)? Wonder if it's restorable..
Georg,
The scopes were soft-soldered into the dovetail mounts but were also held by two tiny screws. From memory I think they may be 10 BA but don't take that as gospel. They went through the mount & into the scope tube, so if you can see two tiny holes on the underside of the tube you probably have your answer....
ATB
I would not say it is restorable to original specs and PPCo. scopes are not rare enough to make it worth trying. It's interesting for what it is now.