Morning chaps, does anyone know the meaning of W and F (separately marked) at the back of a TMH behind the breaking latch on a UE60?
I assume it's something to do with a latch mod??
Printable View
Morning chaps, does anyone know the meaning of W and F (separately marked) at the back of a TMH behind the breaking latch on a UE60?
I assume it's something to do with a latch mod??
Mods were always identified using the Mod Number. So, for example, an internal modification carried out would be marked somewhere externally by the modification number. But a modification that is easily seen/identified wouldn't be marked at all as it'd be visually obvious in any case. I don't recognise the W and F as indicating anything. Tankie..., Skippy?
Attachment 65105here's a pic guys, helping our brethren out on fal-files with this one..
You mean that there's another forum? That TMH looks like it's got one of the bushing trial modifications on it. I mentioned it on a recent thread. There were some bushed TMH's as used in the reliability trials at ITDU left in the store when I left.
Alas, the writing was already on the wall for the L1A1 at the time
Evening Peter, do you mind if I copy and paste your reply on the files?
Cheers, John
No Pete, I have never noticed these before TBH. it is POSSIBLE, as you mention a Trials repair. That they MIGHT appertain to the Initials/ Reference Leger of Persons involved with the hands on Mod/ repair at that time?
As you also state, 'The Writing was on the wall' for the Dear Old L1A1. In my Humble opinion, the hinge pin hole repair situation. SHOULD have been
Properly implemented. As soon as it was known that in Service wear, could cause such problems. Boring & Bushing would have been the better & more efficient method!
The 'Ring punching' method was a VERY temporary so-called-repair, as you are familiar. & was akin to putting a sticking plaster over a hole in a leaking water pipe. It didn't last very long!...........................:rolleyes:
Feel free John..........
Another one has come to light chaps, same repair, but with X and W in the same place, looks like you are bang on the money Mike!
In that case it could be that the marks are to identify the TMH's on trial in the reports appertaining to wear patterns. Although why they wouldn't use the old original TMH/rifle A-12345 type serial number I can't imagine. The TMH's that I saw were naturally all old used ones with worn-out axis pin holes as that was the nature of the trial so maybe they didn't want to confuse RIFLE numbers with trial TMH numbers.
Trials kit was usually marked alphabetically (with painted on numbers/letters!). I/You could hazard a guess and suggest that it could indicate a TMH modified by Warminster Command workshop for the trial programme (the ITDU or our local unit workshop wouldn't have had the jigs to accurately bore eccentric axis pin holes) and the F or X was the identity marker. Just a guess.
Incidentally, a bushed TMH wouldn't be marked as it'd be obvious to the Armourers but as I recall, the new slightly longer hinge pin and matching locking screw had/was to have a concentric ring machined into the outer surface.
Glad you agree about uselessness of the ring punch Tankie. There was a similar one for Sterling butt frames. Renember that? A total waste of rations in both instances. The NZers had a far better idea to fix the L2A3 butt trunions. Bore out, re-bush in brass and soft solder in place. Worked a treat!!
Yes, you had to be VERY careful when applying heat to any Sterling receiver.
ALL the external fittings on the receiver 'Tube' body section.
were Electricly fusion brazed in the Daganham Factory during initial manufacture.
If you applied heat too much, you would discover that some of the fittings nearest to where you were applying local heat.
Would begin to 'slip' round the Body, as the heat spread & melted the brazing! :yikes:
I discovered this at a unit level when I wanted to remove a bayonet lug from a stripped receiver tube.
I was happily using the Armourers shop gas welding kit. & warming up the lug area on the receiver.
When to my abject HORROR! I noticed the Foresite protector bracket begin to move!!!!!
Well, I got the lug out OK. But had to carefully reheat the protector & push it back to it's original position with length of steel rod!.......
The Lug was inserted from INSIDE the receiver during manufacture. And held in position with a 'Flange' around the stem base area. & located in place with braze.
They are a Bast.....Er. 'Difficult' item to remove. And I would advise anyone not familiar with Sterlings. NOT to touch this item if damaged. It takes expertise & skill to fit one!....:crying:
Here endeth my painful lesson. & I hope you Kiddies learn from MY anxious experience?.......:nono:
:) :cheers: :D :lol: ;) :wave:
Ah, yes, but on the NZ butt frames, they just overbored the hole in the butt frame and inserted and soft soldered a bush into that. Didn't touch the main casing. Heat the main casing unevenly and you wouldn't use the gun again anyway as it'd distort unevenly due to...... many things!
The bayonet standards would knock out very easily with just a mild blow in my experience but it'd leave the reinforcing plate behind. In Malaya/Singapore there was a local EMER instruction that if the bayonet boss was missing then we weren't to Y or ZF the gun as in that theatre or operations the lack of the bayonet fixing facility was of no consequence and the gun was considered serviceable.
But nice SMG's. The Rolls Royce of SMG's in my humble opinion
Pete, The L2A3 is one of my Favourite SMGs to fire. I have a 'few' deactivated specimins. Including a VERY rare Fazakerly manufactured Example.
I also own a scratch built Blank Firing Only (Upwards venting!) Sterling which is unfired as of yet!............
In my opinion, a Bayonet on any SMG is useless. More available for Morale Purposes TBH!.. If the Enemy is THAT close that you have to engage with 'The Bayonet'. Then you ARE in Trouble!........
The Sterling WOULD benefit in usage WITHOUT the bayonet lug though. It always bites into the palm of your hand when holding!!.....
As a slight aside. I would LOVE to Own an Aussie F1. But apart from a few in Museums. They all went for the Chop1
I am looking for an illustrated Parts list for the F1 If anyone wants to part with one?
Also, ANY F1 spares. As I would like to construct a replica F1. As getting a genuine / Deact specimen would be well neigh Impossible!...........
I have to agree about the neat little package that was the L2A3 or Sub Machinegun C1. They handled like a nifty light little carbine and shot well. I shot them both for comparison, I had an old L2A3 in the mid '90s. The F1s I handled in Aussie in '77 and knew they were a direct descendant of the Owen. Some of the older men there would have used the Owen too. Didn't know they'd all gone to scrap though...too bad.
I would have thought the only place to see an F1 in the UK would be the Pattern room collection Leeds, or perhaps the SASC Warminster Collection, any there Peter?
It would be a very interesting exercise to compare and contrast the commonwealth 1950's SMGs along side each other.
We didn't have one either. They came into service while I was in Australia and they seemed OK although the old and bold preferred the little Owen. But even then, we were already semi armed with AR15's/M16's which put SMG's in the rifle sections out of business. The masterpiece of the F1 was the virtually unjammable, simple, roller feed, designed by a genius Patchett magazine.
I have got a picture of me crossing a river with one
I have a request in at the Royal Armouries Pattern room to "visit" the MP5's in the collection with regard to my ongoing research into my example, (might get there via the L1A1's and F1 if my visit is approved), I will let you know how I get on chaps.
Just for fun, here's my old spec deac ex NZ L2A3Attachment 65188Attachment 65187Attachment 65186
My old boss gave the final seal of approval for those guns for the NZ Army.
I've got an old spec deact Sterling that's a "US..." numbered example rather than the more commonly seen "KR" prefixed ones. I imagine not as rare as a Faz made "UF..." example though.....
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../24buoox-1.jpg
That's quite rare as it's a Sterling gun made for the UK Military. They got a small order for nefarious reasons. Notice that the designation, the identifier (that's the US part of the number) and the MoS/VAOS number B3/CR 53GA are all lightly roll stamped. Whereas the actual serial number part A-5725 is deeply engraved. Sterling did this so that to obliterate a serial number would damage the magazine housing and make such an act obvious.
Thanks Peter. I recently picked up a copy of your G. o D. book and working my way through it at the mo. Great read and learning a lot.
There are a few F1s outside museums that escaped the furnace.
These belong to an acquaintance of mine.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...09/gun12-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...09/gun13-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../guns3_1-1.jpg
that's Exceedingly rare & I for one. Have never seen one marked like that before! nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by desperatedan
I have about Five different Sterlings in my own Collection. One has interesting selector markings. Instead of: Safe, Semi, & Auto.
it is marked: 0 - 1- 34 on the Trigger mech housing.
I know where the US market Carbine serial Number.1 is for sale. But the 'Shop' that owns it at present. has ALL it's items priced at ridiculously high/ Greedy Offerings!
For mainly the Tourist Market. However, as the unwary/ unknowlegable continue to pay the extortionate amounts asked. The 'Practice' will Undoubtably continue!...............:(
In an ideal and honest world the rarest of the rare would be UF/Fazakerley made SMG's. This was because following the court case regarding the piracy of the Sterling Company property rights, the UK Government stated that it would not sell, lease, give, hire or in any other way dispose of the Fazakerley made guns it possessed. Alas, honesty and promises are not traits that governments then were renowned for
The 1 - 0 - 34 marks were for Countries where English, even ubiquitous simple English like SAFE - FIRE or A-R-S were too difficult to comprehend
I used to live not far from that "shop" and I remember seeing that Sterling and its original cardboard box etc in 2012. Looking at the price (:yikes:) no wonder it's still for sale 3 years later!Quote:
Originally Posted by tankhunter
What Mark/type of carbine is it? Can we presume that it is deactivated?
Peter it's a new spec deact and a Mark 6. From the ad the following info :
"The magazine housing is marked :-
STERLING
SEMI-AUTOMATIC
9MM CARBINE MK6
No. SA0001
Above the trigger is marked :-
Sterling Dagenham UK
CHICHESTER USA DALLAS TEXAS
960 2178
S73 A2"
The importer was LANCHESTER USA DALLAS, TEXAS. I have sn. 0193. Purchased new in the box, (which I still have), in about 1981-82 if memory serves. MIne still goes bang but hasn't for a while since I have a pre '86 sample FA L2A3/Mk.4!
Pete, Mine is a Fazackerley manufactured example. I am only too aware of how rare they are on the Civy Circuit! I searched for MANY years to find an Ex Brit Military specimen! It is the Only one todate, I have encountered. For as you are well aware also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
If they didn't get chopped up & scrapped. The rest made it into War reserve Stocks!
That make perfect sense on the Numerals marked Sterling also. I got it from Tony budge a month before He sadly passed away.
He informed Me at the time of purchase. It was one of a very small batch He obtained from a Saudi Armoury. It had never been fired since leaving daganham!....;)
---------- Post added at 03:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 AM ----------
And they STILL continue this 'Tradition', Today!!!!!!!!!!!!..........................:bitch:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
There are absolutely NO war reserve stocks of Sterlings Tankie. They were guillotined or torched. None were sold off either due to the 60's Court ruling as most of them were Fazakerley anyway with a 'no sale' embargo!
Some of the NZ guns that were sold as deacts/dewats in the UK were Fazakerley guns but that was because NZ inherited a lot of UK kit from the pooled stores situation in Malaya - as did the Malaya Police
Re your last paragraph Tankiie...... I was hoping someone would add that sentiment......
I'll have to keep my eyes open for a Fazakerley made Gun, so far all the ones I have seen have been Sterling and are generally in this condition.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...t810fuvd-1.jpg
The NZ Sterlings were a bit........., er....... moth-eaten KtK. I always wondered why as NZ kit was usually in a similar condition as ours. Mind you, we still had Stens at Ngaruawahia and Papakura.
My friend selected a Faz Sterling from the first NZ imported dewat batch and that was in a similarly moth eaten condition but while the paint was tatty, the phosphating was still good
I refurbished mine to its present condition, as it was very well used too, still it shows NZ got there moneys worth out of them!
---------- Post added at 01:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 PM ----------
I guess the odd Faz example like tankies must have been gifted/sold out of service, then bought by the trade abroad, imported, deactivated and sold off, shame its not an old spec Mike, but I would love a Faz example in my collection old or new spec!
It's a testament to George Patchett and David Howroyd that the very last spare parts manufactured there were fully interchangeable with those from the very first production guns. L2A3's I mean. Mind you, 99% were interchangeable with the earlier guns too. If not as parts, then certainly as assemblies!
Yep....., the Rolls Royce of SMG's. Talking of Rolls Royces, saw a Mustang fly over here yesterday
Attachment 65336Attachment 65335Attachment 65334Attachment 65337Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I may have have been lucky then when I got this ex-NZ L2A3 several years ago, one of the last 'old specs' from DWSUK. Finish doesn't seem too bad, probably about 70-80% of the crinkle paint left, original Sterling mag. He has several 'new specs' on his website, but doesn't specify a manufacturer. Might be worth checking if he has any Faz examples?
There was a manufacturer in Minnesota or Wisconsin, (can't remember his name), that marketed new build "MoD" production L2A3's in the past 5-6 years or so. He used Fazakerley kits exclusively so some were obviously surplused and imported to the USA. The first ROF(F) marked guns I'd ever seen. I got to examine a couple at the SAR West show in 2010. His guns were/are lovely with the smooth paint finish. He purchased complete sets of L2A3 publications from me that he supplied in a custom wood box with the other accessories.
Unlikely Charlie as he does list the serial numbers. All "KR" or "S" prefixes..... So all Sterling made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie303
1 is an interesting photo Charlie as I was never really able to ascertain whether the NZ numbers were stamped by the NZ Defence Force Inspectors (one was later my boss.......) at Sterling prior to painting or or after painting, back in NZ. That's because they were all chipped away at the end of the mag housing - that's the nature of the beast! But it LOOKS as if yours was numbered on site prior to phosphate and paint from the phosphate and paint stuck in the letters/numbers
David Howroys did tell me that certain Nations did want specific marks and numbers. They would oblige but the KR/US or S number Sterling master number was always STILL present.
What's your NZ number like KtK?
The N/|\Z numbers were applied by the New Zealand Armourer's, they also did approximately the first 1000 L1A1 rifles and bayonets before they stopped the practice.
You can clearly see on my L2A3 where the markings have chipped away the Stirling paint.
It should also be noted that the N/|\Z number are not in chronological order relative to the serial numbers. It would seem they just opened box 'A' and started NZ numbering and then numbered box 'Q', 'B', 'J', 'C' etc. I would expect if it was done at Sterling before they were packed and shipped N/|\Z 1 would match up with KR24000, N/|\Z 2 (KR24001) but it certainly doesn't appear that way.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rtzytirh-1.jpg
Hello all.
I'm the fellow that posted the original inquiry at FAL Files regarding the "WF" marking on the TMH John posted a picture of. It seems that thread has run its course IRT useful information. Just thought I'd stop by and introduce myself, and thank you for taking the time to weigh in.
I've had an account here for some time, but this is my first post. Only been to the UK once when we refueled at Heathrow on our way to the ME. Flew in over London on final, and the fog and orange lights illuminating the streets of the city in February as we descended were right out of a movie. I like .30 cal. rifles, .303 Enfields ("rule number
.303"), naked wimminz, Kippling, and cold beer (but not necessarily in that order).
Hi Tanker,
Welcome aboard, its a great forum and superb information repository on all things service rifle related .... best of all it doesn't have a certain person we have both grown rather tired of frequenting it!
Re your photo 39 KtK. I have the fly-press stamp used to press all the markings into the top if the magazine housing. All except the serial number of course which was mechanically pantograph engraved on as the final act before the casing was cleaned and phosphated. At the point of numbering it was 'bonded' into store and became a highly accountable part. That way, Sterling knew that a painted and numbered casing could not ever leave the factory without the correct documentation because it was a controlled and accountable item. If an 'in-the-white casing was ever recovered by the authorities outside the factory (none were.....) then it would be an un-numbered item and therefore, by definition, stolen.
At Fazakerley, 'liberated' Sten and Sterling guns were a regular feature in armed crime in Liverpool well into the 70's and many from there were recovered in Northern Ireland
I have a Magazine housing blank in the Collection. never been fitted to an SMG Casing. It has all the nomenclature on it. Except of course, a serial number!
Not been drilled for the mag catch screw shank. But has been milled out for the catch itself. :thup:
Yep, that's how it was done. THEN numbered immediately prior to phosphate and paint. I have the press stamp used! The stamps were made by a die maker from Birmingham and didn't last long when the factory was in full production. The crackle paint was supplied by TRIMITE.
Yes, TRIMITE. I have seen it in the past. Used on BMC Mini engine Valve Covers, in GREEN!......:cool:
Was Trimite a baking paint like Suncorite? I've done some restorations in the past and used some different brand crackle paints that duplicate the original finish very well and seem to get harder and hold up well with time. There is modern powder coating now that is a much better finish but the "crackle" is just too fine and really doesn't duplicate the look and feel of the original finish.
It was the same paint and process as used on MGB dashboards. I think it was oven baked to harden it but AFTER it had crackled - if that makes sense!
It makes sense to Me. Cos' Im half Baked. & always crackling!.............:madsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler