WW2 .303 ammunition

I have collected over the years a few boxes of ww2 vintage unissued MkVII, tracer Mk11z & blanks, I've been searching for a box of ww2 .303 armor piercing ammo but have only ever come across the odd loose round and never a box, I am starting to think that a full unopened box does not exist any more? Or has someone got any?

1943 NZ c.a.c MkVII
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9rb0mvzp-1.jpg
1943 I.G. Canada Mk11z Tracer (not dated on the front, date embossed on the back)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nz7sccrn-1.jpg
1943 c.a.c MkV s.a blank
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...v2ud3l7o-1.jpg

In Aus the ball ammo is about all we are basically allowed to collect A.P, Incd, Trace and the like are not covered in the license we have as collectors and it has been a long time since I have seen any for sale ~ One day I was at a WWII armorers house and we got talking about Mk VII ammo and he whips out as cool as you like a 250 round belt full of tracer Mk VII and said "Roo shooter ordered this and never picked it up" then without further ado whacked back under the bench. I can tell you his place was like an Aladdin's cave, he also proofed the guns we have on Rottnest Island during the war think they were 8" anyway sadly he has passed and his collection has been broken up or impounded by the powers that be...........
Here is an earlier packet of CAC Cordite 103 years of age now and a packet of Kynoch Mk VII this packets empty I have a full one but its packed away not often seen these packets in any condition well at least I have not seen any of late offered up for sale..

nice stuff gentlemen.

how common are live mk2 rounds over here?

Here in NZ as far as ammo goes tracer & AP rounds are just treated the same as standard ammo, in fact you can still buy crates of ex-military .22 and 7.62x39 tracer from the gun shops here. I had loads of boxes of the .303 tracer and started a few fires with them on a friend's farm! Took some of the opened boxes of 1943 MkVII I have down to the range a while back and fired of a few rounds off, everyone hang fired so must be getting a bit old.

MkII stuff very few and far between Henryr and if it does come up at a fair they usually want top $'s for it, Chris we were in NZ last year again and I just get jealous of what you guys can procure. At a military fair last weekend I was going to buy a modern packet of 5 rounds Kynoch .577 to add to the collection but the seller wanted $45.00/round $225.oo for the packet I passed on that and picked up a bitza packet of 32 Mk VII for $40.oo as there was not much floating around. M-36's were going for $350.oo a 5"shell case $170.oo the 2Pdr complete A.P I brought was bloody costly but in the West stuff is bl**dy hard to get.

Chris you should try Indian POF ammo it is hilarious not only do you get hang fires but all the confetti/smoke that comes out the muzzle obscures ones look at the target I shot it for about 5 shoots and just gave up got a handful of wheat and threw that at the target as the POF dispersion of shots is measured in yards.......

i got lucky a few weeks ago and was given a mk2 round. :D

my colleague and i were going into a customers laundry and there sitting at the door was this nice clean round nose .303 round. i walked straight past it but my colleague who is right into hunting and knows of my current .303 obsession pointed it out.
it had been found in a great uncles personal effects and was about to be handed in to the police for disposal. he was into firearms and his collection had gone to another relative, i would love to know what his collection had contained.

i'm trying hard not to go down the slippery slope into collecting ammunition etc. it's not looking good though... i've picked up a couple of 60's? riverbrand and a super ammunition co box, hopefully i can keep it to post war australian made hunting stuff.

Yes it is quite easy to get bitten but it is half the fun tracking and discovering but also the history I have a few of the Riverbrand packets collecting munitions is an enjoyable pass time at times the story how you came by the piece is just as good as the item.

1st & 2nd - For Bren use only ball ammo

3rd - 15 round WWI packet of 215gn round nose Mk VI un-opened - I have ascertained they are Rn's by judicious lifting of one side of the lid in sunlight and using a magnifying glass to check the projie tip and they are nickle Rn's they were on the rather expensive side from memory.

4th - Bren only Blanks

Attachment 65567 Some of mine.

Attachment 65574Attachment 65575Attachment 65576Attachment 65577Attachment 65578

Are they the same as MkII Special?

They are not MkII Specials, just look like a soft nose sporting bullet to me, The MkII Special has an Indian HS and is like a normal MkII (RN) projectile with the lead tip slightly exposed. I have one i can post a picture of but i can't get to it at the moment as I'm painting the house.

Regards.

I am not sure that MkII are armour piercing or are we talking about the same thing? Armour piercing rounds should be:-
Ctge, Ball Mk VII.s 174gr soft point intro date 10.12.1915 (Point filler steel)
Ctge, Ball Mk VII.P & VII.Pz 174gr soft point intro date 11.1916 (.219" steel core)
Ctge, Ball Mk VII.F & Mk VII.Fz 155gr soft point intro date 23.8.1916 (Turned copper bullet with steel core)
Ctge, Ball MkVII.W & MkVII.Wz 174gr soft point intro date 11.1917 (.250 steel core)
Ctge, Armour Piercing W MkI & Iz soft point intro date 28.2.1929 (.250 steel core)
The only reference I can find to a MkII with a soft pioint is the:-
Ctge, Ball, Cordite, MkII* 215gr soft point intro date ? (Exposed lead tip) not armour piecing.

Chris 7171 sorry to have gone off topic with the MkII stuff. The bright green packet in one of my photos is AP, Kynoch manufacture, i will take a better picture for you.

Vincent your cartridge Head Stamp = V T P ~ Valtion Patruunatehdas Lapua Finland produced Ilmavoimat Konekivaarin Patruuna Kal 7.70 machingun cartridges, which are interchangeable with the .303 cartridge in 'Special' B, 'Special' AP (please do not ask me to type those names again):lol: Could be post war cartridges cases utilized for sporting purposes nice looking pieces Vincent.

Chris a quick story on the Ball for the Bren gun I brought that in NZ and declared it when coming back to Aus but not as collectible ammo as I have open 303's of course the packet was in very good condition when I left it with customs to be picked up later when they ascertained my suitability yadayada. Anyway the suckers were to lazy to open the packet properly and decided a knife would suffice so imagine my dismay when I next saw it the top flaps tongue was nearly severed rendering a really nice packet to just about junk.:mad: Next time I will tag it collectible ammo and it will get straight through, though still can only have Ball ammo.

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Originally Posted by mike1967

i can't get to it at the moment as I'm painting the house

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Hope you started at a doorway Mike so the paints dry enough when you finish so you can get back inside:madsmile:

Thank you, CINDERS. :D:bow::bow::bow::thup:

He started at the doorway so now he's sitting on the counter with a bottle of bourbon...

Attachment 65596

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Originally Posted by mike1967

Attachment 65596

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Very nice, I thought full unissued boxes had gone extinct. Any idea what year they are?
I will keep looking and not give up in finding a box.

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Originally Posted by Chris7171

Any idea what year they are?

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I think they were 1937 or 38, Packet is sealed but i have a loose round, ill check. I think i also have either a DAC or M? 48 Rd box, leave it with me.

The box contains 48 cartridges. I expected a number multiplied by 5. Why 48?

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Originally Posted by cormon

Why 48?

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Because that's the number the box held...and those boxes fit in the existing wooden chest, which in turn fit and already existing size container... There are complete threads here about this particular subject.

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Originally Posted by cormon

The box contains 48 cartridges. I expected a number multiplied by 5. Why 48?

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There is a also 32 !!

Yes there is...

A 50 a 35 as well as a 20 and a 15 (WWI packet) and the 5 Mk VI paper packet sorry my bad I cannot count the CAC 1912 is a 10 round my apologies I will have a talk to my brain later the WWI packet 4th - 5th pic is definitely 15 rounds as it has 2 chargers inverted and 1 charger clip vertical ascertained this the other day

Never seen a 5 or 15 round packet.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

A 50 a 35 as well as a 20 and a 15 (WWI packet) and the 5 Mk VI paper packet

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Here is the 15 round packet with the correct period chargers with 2 - 215gn clips the other is CAC WWI early spitzers as a scale to show there is no room for a 4th charger clip of ammo I feel really bad about the stuff up with the 1912 packet......:surrender:

Ill have to look at mine and weigh them, i have a couple of those tar taped packs and never opened one!

Is this military ammo?What would be the approximate age?I have a chance to buy about a 1000 rounds.All sealed boxes of 48.
Attachment 65885

I should say it is issue ammo being designated 303 G Mk VIIZ Tracer as I feel that ink between the numbers and ball look like a G then it may be a B MK VIIZ which makes it incendiary round I am going to stick to the trace more picks of a better stamped box will do and if it is all trace me personally I would buy then as a collection but thats just me others may differ entirely good score though Source Dave Cushmans Headstamps I have been known to have the odd curve ball

Sorry Cinders, but I don't see anything about tracer markings on the box in the pic Superbee posted?

Looks like perfectly cromulent, standard, post-war military issue .303 Mk VII ammo to me?

No worries CE I was going on that very faint stamping between the last L of Ball and the M which to me looks more like a G as I see no other reason to stamp anything there thats why I asked if they could have a better marked box as that crease in the tape is making things interesting anyway we will see if any other packets have a mark between the two, or better still a round from one of the packets so we can see A) The Annulus and B) The projectile tip if it is coloured either way If I could get may hands on a K of MkVII rounds I would snap them up regardless of their designation.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Enfield

Sorry Cinders, but I don't see anything about tracer markings on the box in the pic Superbee posted?

Looks like perfectly cromulent, standard, post-war military issue .303 Mk VII ammo to me?

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There is a feint G in the space before the MkVII, but i don't think its tracer either. Otherwise it would read 48 Cartridges Tracer, Not 48 Cartridges Ball.

Here is a box of 1943 Tracer, you can see the "G" in the fold of the label, but it is clearly marked Tracer not Ball.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...9fctwwqs-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hk96jqzs-1.jpg

A group of wreck diggers dug up an old aeroplane around here and the RAF were involved as the diggers unearthed belts and belts of .303" ammo all early 40's wartime production. All nice and clean as it was in wing boxes. 4x ball, 1x tracer, 1x incendary, 1x AP. I had a load to use. The ball seemed OK but the tra/Inc was doubtful but the AP would hole a falling plate. Put another way, you wouldn't win any prizes with it!

Could the G be the manufacturer, Greenwood & Batley?

I picked up two 50 round boxes of Winchester/WRA 1943 Mk.7z at the SAR show in Harrisburg in June. I haven't seen any of it since I was a kid working in a gun and pawn shop in Florida in the 1970's. I'm still reloading some of the brass I had back then along with Dominion Mk.7z brass. Good stuff.

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Originally Posted by gsimmons

Greenwood & Batley?

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I think that is plausible as they say not to confuse the G with the GIV Tracer, they produced in excess of 705 million rounds Ball, Black powder Mk 2's, Ball Cordite Mk 2's, 4, 5, 6, 7's, Ball match, Ball N/C 7Z, Bulleted blank Mk 6, Drill, D Mk 6, D Mk 9, Dummy, Drill Mk 5 and Proof OSP

I just went to the range this weekend with a box of Privi Partizan 303. The ammo was consistent, fed and fired well but the extraction was a little difficult. Anyone else experience this with PP 303 or perhaps this was a bad batch?

In Army rifles the high quality HXP brass did tend to expand into and hold on to any small imperfections in the chamber. Could this be what's happening?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

In Army rifles the high quality HXP brass did tend to expand into and hold on to any small imperfections in the chamber. Could this be what's happening?

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That seems pretty reasonable. I have not fired surplus ammo in this No1MkIII* but in a friends rifle the surplus stuff extracted much easier however firing it was a bit dicey as the number of hang-fires was pretty high. If I recall that batch was from 1954 or so. I'll have to try some of the surplus stuff in my rifle.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

In Army rifles the high quality HXP brass did tend to expand into and hold on to any small imperfections in the chamber. Could this be what's happening?

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HXP.. High Quality Peter?

I would have put Privi ahead of HXP in the quality stakes.. I have a load of HXP cases from some of the last batches we bought for the cadets and some of them were decidedly rough! I suspect they were dipped in ouzo as part of the quenching process.. :)

I take the point Bombdoc. Maybe the softness of the HXP brass allowed it to expand into the imperfections put the HXP stuff in the NOT such high quality.

PS Hope you're well.....

As promised Chris7171, Pack of 48.

And a Canadian one.Attachment 66185

Speaking of hang-fires, a while ago I shot a target with 1927 ammunition. (Think Canadian but need to check)

Not as hang -fire amongst them, but only 10 shots if I remember correctly.
Group was a bit more open than usual, but not bad at all!

I first checked a couple of sights to make sure 1927 wasn't real collectors ammo.

Richard.

A few years ago LERA (Lee Enfield Rifle Association) bought some Winchester .303 ammo made in 1941. The guys who shot it reported that it didn't perform that well, didn't seem to have the legs, though I don't recall anyone actually chronographing it. I didn't shoot any, not wanting to put corrosive ammo though my rifles. But I did collect a few of the empty boxes and cases;

Attachment 66242Attachment 66243Attachment 66244

I think a long time ago we had a thread on the crimping of the primer on WRACO rounds for MG usage

Packet of 48 MH 1941 for perusal and an early packet of 50 .310 Super (Pink/White packet normally Blue/White) not that often seen, I also found a 62 MF Mk VII in a motley mix up 32 round packet there are some real early ones of different manufacturers will go through and list some what I think are unusual dated ones also at what point did Footscray stop production of the Mk VII round. TIA

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

at what point did Footscray stop production of the Mk VII round. TIA

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1962 is the last Head stamp, I believe 1961 does not exist.