Collecting and shooting Milsurps on the cheap

Well reading another thread, it was pointed out that younger collectors have a hard time getting into collecting at the moment due to cost. The intent of this post is to let people who are interested in getting into collecting (but not limited to), know how to do so for relatively cheap prices as not everyone has 2-4k kicking around to buy a K98k. I will apologize that this list primarily deals with Canada, as that is where I am, and where my experience is so it might not match up with your specific country. A caution this a long read, my intent wasn't to make this long a post, but it just happened that way (more like a article).

To start I am a young collector, and I was fortunate enough to have a well paying job for a while which let me experiment and discover what I liked and didn't like. Unfortunately for me that cost a fair bit of coin to gain this knowledge. I have been collecting for 5 years at this point and it is a blast, but since I am now attending college, I have been forced to be much more careful with my money and how I spend it.

For most new shooters, the two biggest costs are the rifle, and the ammo for the rifle. Many don't realize that just because a gun costs 300$ doesn't mean that you can find ammo for that gun (Carcanos, Lebel-Berthiers etc.). A excellent way to start collecting at the moment is to acquire Soviet surplus firearms, which at the moment are common on the market. For me I started with a SKS quickly followed by a Mosin Nagant 91/30. The greatest advantage these rifles have is the cost and availability of ammo, at the moment in Canada 7.62x54r costs 250$ for 1000 (plus taxes) and about the same for 1200-1440rds of 7.62x39.

Now Soviet firearms are interesting but not everyone wants to collect them, which is 100% understandable everyone has there interests, and they definitely aren't the most 'refined' rifles. The premise of this post however is based on the availability of 7.62x54r and 7.62x39.

One of the things you must know about 7.62x54r and 7.62x39 is that they are both approximately .310-.312 diameter bullets, or actually 7.7 diameter bullets (not a true 7.62 which is a .308 diameter bullet). This means that these bullets are too big for a .30 caliber rifle (30-06, 7.62x51 etc.), but are suitable for many different milsurp rifles.

With these two cases you can make up some very accurate rounds for cheap for the following calibers, .303 British, 7.7x58 Japanese, and 7.65x53 Mauser. There maybe more calibers, but these are just the ones I will touch on.

To make this ammo for cheap you must buy a reloading kit, and the dies and shell holders for the proper caliber, the brass for the caliber, and primers, along with a bullet puller. This will likely run you somewhere in the 300-600$ range. However by doing this you will save yourself a significant amount of money in the long run (this set up will pay itself off in about 555rds, after that it is pure savings) and often make better quality ammo than the factory ammo.

To make this ammo, you must pull the 7.62x54r or the 7.62x39. You prime and size your brass of chosen caliber (.303, 7.7 Jap, 7.65x53 Mauser), and then if using the 7.62x39 do a straight case dump (when I pulled the 7.62x39 it was approximately 24grns for the batch I was dealing with so that is what I set my powder measure to) and seat the 7.62x39 bullet, this makes a decent plinking round with no kick for 100m. If your pulling the 7.62x54r reduce the powder by 15-25% depending on the case (for my .303 I tend to go to about 37grns when the pulled ammo holds 44grns which is about a 17% drop in powder charge). You then just seat the bullet at the proper length. Doing this costs about 38cents a shot for pulled 7.62x54r and about 27cents a shot for pulled 7.62x39. Considering for most these calibers factory ammo costs at least 1.25$ (7.7 Jap tends to cost 2.50$ a shot!) you will save money very quickly.

The other major advantage is the pulled bullets are flat based so they perform exceptionally well in these rifles (approximately 150grns for the pulled 7.62x54r bullets and 120grns for the pulled 7.62x39 bullets). For my P14 in .303 British I can likely shoot about a inch group with the pulled 7.62x54r vs the 3 inches with the factory boat-tail ammo.

Now to get to the rifles. I will recommend the rifles based on price and caliber.

For .303 British, my number one recommendation is a P14. These are very interesting rifles which have neat history and have excellent iron sights (a very effective aperture sight). They also have the advantage of having a regular chamber which leads to longer brass life which keeps shooting costs down. In Canada these rifles can be found in the 300-500$ range, just this year I acquired my personal rifle with a mint bore and original volley sights for 350$. Other rifles in this caliber which would be good to look at are

• a sporterized Ross which has a good chamber (not enlarged) that would be around 200-400$. The main reason I put this on the list is because of the fact it has a 'normal chamber' instead of a Enfield style chamber.
• a No. 4 Mk. 1(*, or Mk. 2) Lee Enfield which currently runs about 350-650$ these have 'Enfield' chambers which is very hard on brass if you full length resize. There are many tricks used to reload for these specific rifles to increase brass life, but overall your brass won't last as long as a P14 or a Ross (provided the Rosses chamber hasn't been enlarged).
• No. 1 Mk. 3* Lee Enfield, approximately 350-550$ see the note above about the Enfield chamber.

There are of course more .303 British rifles out there but I am just focusing on ones that are cheaper to acquire.

For 7.7x58 Japanese there is only one option, the Arisaka Type 99. These rifles have tons of history and several main variations. The largest advantage these rifles have is the bores are all pretty much VG+ as all but the 'last ditch' variants have chromelined bores, which protected them over the years (along with the fact ammo was all but impossible to find until recently). One of these will run you anywhere from 350$-1000$. Biggest issue in Canada is these aren't that available as not nearly as many came into Canada as did the States.

And finally for 7.65x53 my number one recommendation is a Argentine M1909 Mauser. Based on the M98 action, it is very strong. They were also very well made firearms. These can be found in poor shape to EXC+ condition. At the moment one of these rifles will run you about 350-1000$ in Canada, shooter grade likely about 450-500$. Other options for the 7.65x53 is

• 1891 Argentine Mauser, approximately 550-750$
• Peruvian Mausers (basically the same as the Argentine variants, should be about similar prices)
• Belgium Mausers (1889, etc.) these are very uncommon/rare and price wise they are all over the map
• Turkish Mausers pre-1930 (approximately) which haven't been converted to 8mm Mauser. Very rare and likely expensive but you never know what you will run into, sometimes for very cheap.

This about sums it up. These calibers can be made for cheap, and it gives you a variety of options for action types. I wish it to be noted that the three top choices (i.e. number one pick for each caliber) are very strong actions, that do have a fair bit of room for safety (all of those actions the P14, Type 99, and M98 Mauser, can and have been used to make magnum caliber chambered rifles). Do your research before reloading with surplus ammo (or any reloading for that matter), sometimes you don't get the chance to make the same mistake twice. Have fun collecting and shooting, as if you aren't having fun you need a new hobby.

Thanks for the taking the time to put all that information together, Eaglelord - very kind of you!

I agree with you about Soviet rifles being a great starting point for new MilSurp shooters - the guns are solidly built, accurate, and even in this part of the world you can get a really nice one and still see useful change out of $500.

It'll interesting to note the differences in availability of military surplus rifles and ammunition in different areas, too.

I don't want to hijack your excellent thread so early in the proceedings, but personally, I'd advise a new shooter to stay away from "Weird"* calibres like 7.7mm Arisaka, or 7.65mm Mauser.

I've always suggested people go with .303, 6.5x55 Swedish, 7.62x51/308, or 7.62x54R calibre guns until they're more established in the pursuit. Because those are the most common Service Rifle calibres, they're the ones where there's the most expertise available for (ie other people who load the cartridges, have guns chambered in them, etc) - things which are important to a new shooter.

*"Weird" being any calibre you can't generally readily obtain from pretty much any gunshop.

The hardest part of getting a milsurps is finding a really good shooter and know what your looking at, as I have said previously whilst a pretty stock is nice its the workings of the weapon that are of prime importance as I have seen real dogged out stocks on Mk III's and 4's but they could really group because the owners took the time to look beneath the skin. And this is where as experienced members of a club help the tyro's of the world get into the sport with a rifle that will give them the results down the range and not a Ferrari with a VW motor under the bonnet.
Nothing more will kill off a persons enthusiasm than a rifle that groups in the meters, and in my meager 42 years shooting and hunting I have seen some unscrupulous people rip new members off because they needed to clear a spot in their collection of a clunker. I have witnessed these young people with the passion get back at 600m and just throw money down the range and hit nothing because they believed the sales pitch "Oh yeah she shoots real dandy like".
I do not know what Dandy shoots like as I need a practical demonstration by the owner and myself shooting the rifle it works, looks are secondary, time and patience are needed to encourage the young shooters to utilize the knowledge base in a club that way they will not become digruntled members and leave because they blame themselves for missing due to poor technique rather than the rifle being useless or shot out.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Enfield

I don't want to hijack your excellent thread so early in the proceedings, but personally, I'd advise a new shooter to stay away from "Weird"* calibres like 7.7mm Arisaka, or 7.65mm Mauser.

I've always suggested people go with .303, 6.5x55 Swedish, 7.62x51/308, or 7.62x54R calibre guns until they're more established in the pursuit. Because those are the most common Service Rifle calibres, they're the ones where there's the most expertise available for (ie other people who load the cartridges, have guns chambered in them, etc) - things which are important to a new shooter.

*"Weird" being any calibre you can't generally readily obtain from pretty much any gunshop.

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I 100% understand what you are saying in regards to common calibers, but the advantage of the 7.7x58 and the 7.65x53 is that once you have the brass and dies it is no harder to reload than a standard 7.62x51 and 7.62x63 (30-06). It is even easier to reload than the .303 British. It also gives some variety in options for actions (M91 Mauser actions, M98 Mauser actions, Type 99 action etc.) so it gives a bit more variety than just using a Mosin Nagant (not a bad thing, but personally I like to shoot at least two different rifles at the range per day I shoot).

Right now in Canada, both those types of brass are available for the same price as any other full rifle caliber (70-80$ for 100 pieces), which if you get 10 reloads out of each piece comes to about 7-8cents a shot.

The biggest goal of this article is to let people know how to shoot these rifles cheaply. If your shooting 6.5x55 in Canada your looking at 1.25$ a round at the moment, and even if you reload it is only slightly cheaper (100 bullets costing 40$, this applies to virtually every caliber except .223 and .308). Besides at about 27-38cents a shot, your shooting centerfire for cheaper than virtually anyone else (except maybe some cast lead shooters), and most definitely are shooting jacketed bullets for cheaper than anyone else, unless they are using this technique. It is actually cheaper make and fire the whole round than it is to just buy the bullet itself. You will pay for your reloading gear in 555rds of .303 British or 218rds of 7.7 Japanese (just looking at if your buying factory ammo).

Personally the first caliber I ever reloaded for was a 7.7x58 Japanese, and other than one mistake that required me to dump and deprime 50 cases (seated the primers too deep accidentally on my first try) I have never had a issue.

Unfortunately I only have a 100m range to play around with in my area, so I haven't been able to stretch it out farther, but they preform excellently in this area (better than I can) so there is no reason I can see it won't do good at longer ranges (certainly grouping better than the factory ammo I have used).

I think this discussion perfectly demonstrates the difference between countries regarding ammunition/gun availability :)

Ammo in Australia costs a fortune. Factory, reloading components, doesn't matter, it still costs the sort of money that would make our friends in the US keel over with an attack of the vapours.

My observation is centrefire ammo for the "mainstream" calibres I mentioned earlier is about $1.50/rnd, with deals available from time to time when someone imports a container-load of a specific calibre (or range thereof).

While I appreciate where you're coming from with regards to ease of reloading for some of the odd cartridges, in this part of the world the guns themselves are so uncommonly encountered as to make it a moot point. For example, I don't think I've ever even seen a rifle chambered for 7.65x53mm Mauser, except for a scant handful of Turkish Mauser rifles on display in museums, captured during the Gallipoli Campaign.

Back in the '80s and '90s someone imported vast quantities of Swedish Mausers into Australia - so many they're easily the second most commonly encountered Milsurp rifle here after the various .303s. Something similar is happening at the moment with the Swiss Schmidt-Rubin rifles; someone has imported a heap of them, they're on the market for reasonable prices, and they've suddenly become very popular whereas perhaps five years ago only serious military rifle enthusiasts would have even heard of them, much less own one.

I know there's a few Carcanos floating around for next to nothing at the moment; a friend grabbed one a year or two back for that reason but discovered the ammo and reloading components were so hard to get in his area that he's now stuck with a spectacularly average rifle that's a huge pain in the neck to feed, not cheap to run, and not especially accurate either.

I must stress that all this doesn't make your advice bad in any way - just illustrates the different experiences people are going to have in different areas. :)

That is very interesting the differences your region can make.

In Canada .303s of many makes and varieties (though many of them sporterized) are the most common milsurps but are less and less common at the range due to the increase of cost for .303 British. Mosin Nagants and SKSs would be the most likely thing to see at the range at this point for military surplus, which is good but many people are missing on quite a fair bit of variety. There are a bunch of 8mm Mauser rifles and 6.5 Swedish rifles kicking around but again due to increase in ammo costs you see them less and less. The Swiss rifles seem to have increased in popularity here as well, but so has the price, which again makes it harder for people to get into it.

Often where I live (which is primarily a hunting town), I am the one with the diversity in milsurps/any milsurps at the range (many in this region see no need for them and would prefer the newest cheapest hunting rifle in some 'magnum' caliber).

The most interesting thing to me is ammo prices have jumped significantly recently. Two years ago I could buy new production (PPU) ammo for most milsurps for 20$ a box. Now those same boxes sell for 25$+ a box. No difference in ammo quality but a 25% minimum jump in price. Even .22 ammo is getting unaffordable, in my city 2 years ago it was 20$ a box of 500, now it is 40$ a box of 500 (which I refuse to pay). Most new people don't realize most the cost is in buying the ammo for the rifle, not just acquiring the rifle itself, and with the way the factory ammo is going, it is getting very unaffordable for all.

In my area, Pennsylvania, eastern half, there are a few bargains to be had. Usually at flea markets or private sales. Auctions tend to be high, dealers tend to be high if they ever get any in which isn't often anymore. Best bargain at the moment seems to be Turkish Mausers. Still selling for less than $200 around here and generally in pretty good condition. Nagants are bringing more. Czech and Yugo Mausers are in the $200-$300 range. Nagants in the low $200's maybe high $100's. Best ammo deal is probably Swiss with Soviet calibers right in there.

the other milsurp that is common and cheap where i am is the .310 martini cadet. every gunshop that carries second hand rifles in my region has at least one still in original form.

brass isn't stupidly priced (all ammunition is comparatively expensive in australia), with cast bullets i think it would be fairly cheap to reload.

i loved using a martini action when i last tried it, i like the way they look, but i have no idea what i'd use a .310 cadet for personally.

I agree with CE in our region it is just expensive to shoot a 4 kilo of 06H just set me back $400.00:yikes: so 08 would be the same plus I think 1000/174SMK's set me back $650.00:eek: Remington 303 brass is non existent in Australia now and my local has Hornady stuff at $75.00/50 so I am glad I hedged 2 Rem packets last year. The state I am in is governed by what ever the Eastern states gets because that is where the stuff is landed, at one point the S.A govt would not let the trucks carrying the powder through the state so the powder was coming via the Northern Territory after going through Queensland with the additional freight cost absorbed by the consumer.:mad:
I hope things improve in the supply of components for us here in W.A, as for the Swedes they have faded the K-31 were a fad they have dried up a bit as the guys were having to buy the mags as the cardboard stripper clips are collectible now price a K-31 mag in Australia I think they are about $150-$160/Au/ea:confused:

It has taken me 30 years to accumulate a meagre reloading set up of reasonable quality gear as I have done my apprenticeship on single stage presses ect and weighing each charge direct from the can now it is easier with the DPM 1300 but you still have to weigh each final charge. For the tyro it gets daunting and frustrating but thats where the older members help so A) They do not blow themselves up B) Get the reward of better results for their toils. You can get a reasonable No.4 for $500-600 Savage usually Faz and LB for some reason demand a bit more, Mk IIIs the same because we are aiming at entry level shooters obtaining a reasonable rifle.

A question I have for the wise ones persons are advertising in the grease 4's for $2,650.oo/Au if they have been in the grease that long then the stocks I gather would be immune from warping and drying right out as the cosmoline seals it all up. As to pay that money for a NOS rifle and find a warped stock would be really rotten whats the guff fellows....

Wow CINDERS seeing those numbers is making me cringe.

I have noticed that thanks to being able to buy firearms over the internet it has really helped even out the prices a bit over Canada. Unfortunately what this means is that everything is more expensive. In regards to Canada vs US for prices, I find most milsurps excluding the Soviet stuff tends to be cheaper in the US. Everything just seems to be a bit cheaper, except oddly enough ammo at the moment.

It would be interesting if someone did a cost comparison between countries for shooters. I imagine the UK likely has the highest rates (low number of firearms owners coupled with limited buying ability so much less bulk buys by the stores), Australia and New Zealand being somewhere in the middle and Canada and the US likely being at the bottom.

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Originally Posted by henry r

the other milsurp that is common and cheap where i am is the .310 martini cadet. every gunshop that carries second hand rifles in my region has at least one still in original form.

brass isn't stupidly priced (all ammunition is comparatively expensive in australia), with cast bullets i think it would be fairly cheap to reload.

i loved using a martini action when i last tried it, i like the way they look, but i have no idea what i'd use a .310 cadet for personally.

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I'm told cost-wise they're not too bad to load for, but they're fiddly - something to do with the way the bullet it seated or lubricated or something. You're right that they're easy to obtain though - pretty much every gun shop I've ever been in in Australia has at least one. I usually advise new shooters to avoid them because you can't get factory ammo for them. There's one or two people making bespoke loaded ammo but it's not especially cheap.

I'm told they're good for shooting foxes and rabbits - more oomph than a .22 and longer range than a shotgun. Interestingly, I've heard quite a few have been rechambered for .357 Magnum over the years. I've never seen one but it would definitely be a fun plinking/target/small game rifle!

The price of ammunition in this country continues to surprise me, given there's a surprising number of shooters and not a huge variety of commonly encountered calibres. Even the stuff that's made here (.22, .223 and 7.62x51) costs a lot for some reason.

CE try buying a packet of .308 ADI Outback ammo with the Sirocco projie @$55.oo/Au for 20 rounds

That was the sort of thing I was getting at - they make .308 ammunition here in Australia on a commercial (military) scale; it should be practically free (.20c a round or something max, IMHO). Instead it costs the same - or even more - than ammo imported from the other side of the planet.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

In regards to Canada vs US for prices, I find most milsurps stuff tends to be cheaper in the US. Everything just seems to be a bit cheaper, except oddly enough ammo at the moment

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This is primarily because the Canadian dollar, which was at parity with the US dollar 2 years ago, has been devalued 25% against the US dollar. I know, as I am in Canada once a month on business. Makes for great value in Canada for the US citizen on a lot of other things if you can take advantage of the difference.

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How about the Milsurp Pistols?-- there seem to be quite a number under the $500 USD limit.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Enfield

That was the sort of thing I was getting at - they make .308 ammunition here in Australia on a commercial (military) scale; it should be practically free (.20c a round or something max, IMHO). Instead it costs the same - or even more - than ammo imported from the other side of the planet.

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Just because a government has a manufacturing facility and makes it in bulk doesn't mean it is cheap. In Canada we have IVI who makes ammo for the Canadian Forces. The military still pays 1.50$ a round of 7.62 NATO despite have a factory that makes it.

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Originally Posted by Seaspriter

This is primarily because the Canadian dollar, which was at parity with the US dollar 2 years ago, has been devalued 25% against the US dollar. I know, as I am in Canada once a month on business. Makes for great value in Canada for the US citizen on a lot of other things if you can take advantage of the difference.

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How about the Milsurp Pistols?-- there seem to be quite a number under the $500 USD limit.

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I live on the border so I am in the States usually every weekend, and at least once a month, but your prices are just lower (Gallon of milk is 2$, vs in Canada where we pay about 6 dollars, Gallon of gas is 2.60 vs about 4.80 dollars etc.). Even if we take out the dollar at the moment (just a couple years, year and a half, something like that) the dollar was on par with the US dollar, the prices of firearms in the US haven't shot up at quite the same rate. For example a M91 Carcano will run you anywhere from 300-400$ in Canada, vs the 200$ or so in some places of the States. Thinking on it there is very few firearms in Canada which are in the sub 200$ range anymore.

A fair bit of milsurp pistols are cheaper, I will give you that, but a fair bit has to do with laws. A all matching P08 Luger can be as low as 800$ in Canada, but that is due to the fact only a very few have the proper licence for them, and no one can acquire that licence anymore. The number of people capable of buying pistols in Canada is also lower than those that buy rifles (only 1 in 3 people who have a firearm licence have a restricted licence (basically for pistols with barrels longer than 4.2 inches, and some rifles), which works out to roughly 500,000 potential handgun buyers) which helps keep prices low. Plus the hassle turns people off buying pistols when you can get a rifle easier (for me, I only own 3 pistols, as it is a pain to deal with).

The other big reason milsurp pistols tend to be cheaper is that was what vets brought back. Technically Canadian vets weren't allowed to bring back firearms, so they smuggled pistols back primarily as they are easy to hide.

It's not so much the local bulk manufacturing of ammo which I'd expect to bring the price down, it's the shipping costs. Dangerous Goods shipping costs a mint in this country and shipping anything to Australia inexplicably costs a fortune. I mean, I know the internet memes about Australia being full of dangerous/poisonous creatures just waiting to drop on unsuspecting Americans are funny, but I can't help but wonder if it's contributed to shipping costs which appear to be only slightly less than sending things to the International Space Station.

The vast disparity between what goods cost in Australia and what they cost elsewhere in the civilised world is colloquially known as "The Australia Tax" and is particularly egregious for things like software, music, movies (ie things which exist digitally and don't need to be "shipped" anywhere). There's been at least one parliamentary enquiry into it, but nothing much has changed as far as I'm aware.

Otherwise, it's interesting to note the similarity in costs you mention between Canada and Australia. Both countries have similar populations and valued currencies but unlike Australia, you'd think Canada would be able to enjoy the economies of scale of being close to the much larger US market - it's interesting to see that isn't the case.

On the upside, Canadians can purchase Norinco firearms, which I don't believe are available for import into the US.

I do not believe there is a ban on Norincos. I've never wanted one but I see a lot of them for sale. Could have been in the most recent ban which stopped the SVT's.

Can't import our own Garands from Korea so it wouldn't really surprise me. The government hasn't figured out it actually owns them yet. They were on loan to Korea and not really for Korea to sell to US importers. CMP should be getting them.

Funny you mention the low prices on the little Martini's. They are pushing $500-$600 in the US and highly desired. Most were converted to 32-20 which involved reaming for the thicker rim. I have one which was my 3rd milsurp bought about 20 years ago. Unknown to me at the time as I wasn't really a collector, the stock had been butchered. I have since replaced it with a complete stock which matches the territory marked on the receiver but not the serial number. Kind of embarrassed but still grateful now, the only reason I bought it was because of the Kangaroo. I have shot it, one of the few milsurps that I actually have. It's a lot of fun

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I do not believe there is a ban on Norincos.

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Unfortunately there is. George. H then Slick Willy though Executive orders. I don't care what the official reasons given are, it was done to protect U.S companies from cheap imports. What we see on the market now was all imported pre-ban.

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware they were banned. I guess my next question would be after looking at current Gunbroker bids..........Are people freaking insane? Just because it's banned doesn't make it a quality piece worthy of breaking the bank over. There are plenty of good quality firearms out there without resorting to Norinco's and Norinco's rep was always like stated, "they are cheap". To me cheap and China don't equate with quality. Numerous bids well over $1000 for a civilian market AK. I don't get it.

Yes, yes they are. Some of the prices on the regional classifieds we both visit are absolute proof.....

I would like an SVT really bad. But I'm not willing to pay $1000 for something that will most likely plummet in price as soon as we get a president that will lift the import ban. The same thing is going to happen to all these Norincos. Doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I would like an SVT really bad.

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Wish I could just send you one...we got lots...

With the current U.S. Department of State import/export embargo on all things Russian, I wouldn't hold my breath about the ban being lifted regardless of who the President is. I can't even export a Mosin Nagant 91-30 sniper rifle that was imported at least 8-10 years ago and sold by Interordnance in North Carolina. The majority of Russian weapons imported in the past 20 years have come from the Ukraine which makes things even more dicey. I'm an optimist and live in hope too but really fear the good 'ol days of quality, (and some not-so quality milsurp imports), has come and gone. The UN rules on cutting them up instead of offering them up to the legal gun trade has taken a big jump forward too in just the past 5 years. Our taxpayer dollars, Euros and Pounds Sterling at work. Very sad. :thdown:

Well if I was starting from scratch I would go the SKS/91-30/SVT line and hunt for good ones. They are decent for what you pay and it doesn't take a lot to make them much better. I think we have 4 SKS models, one being a D and we shoot one in particular which is accurate enough to enjoy especially considering how cheap the ammo is. The one SKS we use on a regular basis has had thousands of rounds thru it, all corrosive and still shoots "pretty darn good".

Are they super accurate no however considering they are really cheap I am not going to complain. My son bought me a decent (not great) 91/30 and also a Timney trigger for it. Let me tell you that gun is accurate beyond belief and a standard clay at 200 is a given shot when my son uses it and probably 70%+ for accuracy in hitting one at 300. Yes the finish is crappy, kicks like a mule but the let off of the Timney makes it a dream to shoot.

I also notice so many speak disparagingly about Norinco products. Yes some are beyond crude and for sure QC is a oxymoron at times however again I have shot a CQ and a M305 and believe me they are capable of making you keep your head down out to some pretty decent range. The CQ is not as good as a DPMS we have however some pretty serious money has been invested into the DPMS and it better be a good gun. At this moment I can buy a CQ for 530.00 Canadian dollars, ($328.00 USD) you can't complain about that.

The M305 can be a decent gun IF you hunt for the best one you can find. Indexing on some must have been checked by Stevie Wonder but that is fixable with effort and a GI part providing you get the gun cheap. A good friend purchased a Springfield M14, holy crap nice gun but for $2,500.00 it better be and IMHO the receiver is not as strong as the Norinco M305. You can get a M305 in Canada for 600.00 ($450.00 USD) and for a couple hundred bucks and a clinic on what to do make it one damn accurate gun.

Will write more, just got a call from a old school buddy I haven't seen in over 50 years..off for coffee!
Back, it was great to see my friend Dave. He was the "Fonz" in school, black combed back hair, white Monarch convertible and personality plus. He is off to see his sister in Vancouver who I dated in high school. I am going to visit him there next week...

Back on subject. As I said the Norc 305 can be built into a very accurate gun with a little work and not a lot of money. A buddy just has two on the way, one a short barrel which I am interested in and a factory camo gun which I think must be the long barrel model. They may never be as accurate as a Springfield however for less than a grand I know it will give my friends $2,500.00 gun one real scare. There is a guy in BC that gives clinics on how to improve your 305, weld the gas block and a few other changes that make it very acceptable.