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Does anyone have access to info on what compliment of small arms was issued to each class of ship during WWII? I'm specifically interested in submarines, destroyer escorts, and destroyers, but I'm really interested in all of them. I've search on the web and come up empty.
Thanks for any help!!!
Bob
Small bit of info in this bit;
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...xk54rR7H0CYGuA
My dad was on DE-258 The Walter S. Brown, he said they had pistols, M1903 rifles and Thompsons. I'll try to find the picture.
Thanks for that. The portions on decks guns were especially revealing to me about that part of the sub's weapons. Knowing that there were standard inventories of goods assigned to all new construction, I've been trying to nail down numbers. I've read the excellent book Little Ship, Big War, on the subject of DEs warfare, specifically aboard DE-343 William Warner Abercrombie, as well as virtually all of the monographs from sub commanders and crewmen. There is some mention but no numbers, and that has been my experience in reading most monographs.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
Bob
Bob, Thanks for this request. I'm quite curious too. My father commissioned a DD during WWII and I commissioned a DE/Fast Frigate during the Vietnam era. Neither of us were gunnery officers, so we didn't go prowling around in the small arms gun locker or do inspections there.
However, I do recall -- because we used them for practice off the fantail -- BAR, Colt 1911 (strapped to my side in Vietnam), flare guns, and I believe an M-14 (M-16s were just being phased in and we had none on board in 1970-72).
I suspect the complement aboard a WWII small arms gun locker was very similar -- would really like to see the inventory list.
Robert
From Culver's :
Small arms on WW2 Battleships.
What I know for sure.
Off the USS California(BB44) small arms salvaged on 12/07/41 were:
Battery #1 96 1903 rifles,15 1911s,6 BARs,4 Lewis guns
Battery #2 81 1903 rifles,14 1911s,6 BARs,4 Lewis guns
Battery #3 84 1903 rifles,18 1911s,6 BARs,4 Lewis guns
Battery #4 91 1903 rifles,16 1911s,8 BARs,4 Lewis guns,4 Thompsons
USS Saratoga (CV3) turned in to stores 8/41:
5 Cutlasses
10 BARs
157 1903 Springfields
Respectfully submitted
Ed Byrns
The Navy would have a few small arms on board , the Marine detachment would bring their own . The Navy guns would tend to be older or secondary line guns ( Remington '03 / A3s and S/W revolvers ) while the Marine's would be M1 Garands and 1911A1s , depending on the time / unit .
Chris
Wow, cutlasses in 1941. It made me check online and apparently they were in stores with the U.S. Navy until 1949 and the last model issued was the M. 1917. Very nice. Arrgh. Tom
I've read the stories of several submarines that did stop, search, and sink during WWII. I'd bet the cutlass would have come in handy, if for nothing other than cutting away souvenirs. SS-306 Tang displayed a labeled life ring from one of her victims on her periscope shears each time she entered port.
Bob
The carrying of small arms aboard Naval vessels goes back hundreds of years. At the founding of our Navy in the Revolution, all Frigates (like the Constitution in Boston Naval Shipyard) carried a contingent of Marines aboard that were stationed in the tops firing on the enemy's gun crews. In the event of the need for a landing party on unfriendly territory, such as hunting pirates (which we did in earnest between 1821-25), the landing party was appropriately armed.
Now for the juicy part (at least for me). In 1971 I was a junior officer aboard the newly commissioned DE/FF-1075. We were in Guantanamo Bay for our shakedown cruise (working the thousands of "bugs" out of every piece of gear). We were on Operational Readiness trials off the coast of Cuba when a Very High Priority Top Secret, Captain's Eyes Only encrypted message was received in the radio shack. I was the Top Secret Encryption Officer (among a myriad of other duties). I went to the crypto vault, took out the encryption codes, raced to the Captain's Quarters with the message, and he then asked me to leave and called in the Executive Officer while he personally decoded the message.
A minute or two later, the ship wheeled around abruptly and we rooster-tailed it back to Gitmo. On the pier were crates of supplies and ammunition. All hands (including Officers) were ordered to bear a hand loading all the crates on the double.
All the Gitmo Operational Readiness inspectors were ordered to stay on board. As the last crate was put on the fantail, the brow (gangplank) was taken in, all lines cast off, and we high-tailed it out of Gitmo at flank speed bound to patrol the Windward Passage, the strait between Cuba and Haiti. No one but the Captain and the XO and the Gunnery Officer knew what was going on at that time. Why all the commotion? What could the Top Secret message have ordered?
As soon as we had cleared Gitmo harbor, all Officers and Chief Petty Officers were called to the Wardroom. Laid out on the wardroom table were sufficient 1911 Colt 45s to arm us all. The Captain told us that Dictator Duvalier of Haiti (Popa Doc) had just died, and the CIA received information that Cuba was preparing to cross the Windward Passage and invade Haiti (island of Hispaniola). We were the only ship in the immediate vicinity to fill the gap between Cuba and Hispaniola.
Worse, our main battery, a newly-designed 5" 54 gun mount (which was designed to fire a 5" shell at the rate of 1 round per second) was CasRep'd (meaning it had been placed on the Casualty Report) -- it was inoperable due to some design flaws. Machine guns had not yet been mounted topside (that happened the next year in Subic Bay). Yikes, we had no other weapons to fight a Cuban invasion other than small arms!
Our Captain, Alan Higginbotham, a very good senior officer who came to the destroyer fleet via the submarine force, explained grimly that our ship was not going to suffer the fate of the U.S.S. Pueblo under Captain Lloyd Bucher. That ship held the ignominious distinction of being the only U.S. Navy ship ever captured without a fight (by the Koreans only three years earlier). If we couldn't use our main battery, we'd have to engage with small arms. He expected it would be a fight to the death if necessary -- we weren't going to give up the ship (like Bucher and his crew who were tortured as prisoners of war.) The rest of the Gunner's Mates were issued the limited numbers of BARs and M-14s.
Then Chief Gunner's Mate Gerry Russell (after the Navy we became a close friends), gave us all a short refresher course in how to use the 1911. We then strapped on the 45s, and went to General Quarters Battle Stations.
Fortunately (for us and for Haiti) the Cubans did not invade, we protected the peace with 45s and BARs and M-14s. If you don't think we all thought of ourselves as John Wayne prototypes (Sands of Iwo Jima, etc.), make no mistake -- the choice was clear: be scared of the grim possibility of warding off the Cuban amphibious armada with small arms, or be courageous, tough, and stalwart -- we chose the latter, which served us well the following year in Vietnam.
(maybe this post is a little off the focus of the thread, but I couldn't resist writing the heretofore unwritten story.)
Robert
Which we always enjoy hearing...Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaspriter
UK and Australian submarines carried Lanchesters and .38" revolvers until the late 60's as we used to overhaul them from the Naval Ordnance Depot in Singapore (I think it was called HMS Terror but don't quote me.....). There were still 6 Lanchesters in the main workshop Armoury when we left in very late 1969 from an ex UK submarine that had been gifted/sold to Australia that presumably left without them!
I had an uncle that served on the USS Indianapolis during early WW2 . One of his jobs was to inventory the small arms locker every quarter ( or was it monthly ? ) . He remembered it had 4 cutlasses on the list . One time , it only listed 2 , not 4 . He and the other , superior , officer were in a quandry about what to do . My uncle speaks up and says , " Well , why don't you take one and I'll take the other ? " . Both agreed that was a good solution .
One time when we were back visiting them , he offered to give me that cutlass . I refused , saying he should give it to one of his kids . I guess they didn't want it , because he sold it in a yard sale the next day .I still kick myself over that today , decades later .
Chris
That's a heckuva sea story to have in your pocket but I bet it was a tense situation to live through!
Bob
Would have been a nice cutlass to have too, specially if marked.
You are right, Bob. I was Officer of the Deck on the 4-8 (am) watch the following morning. We were standing modified General Quarters. Just before sunrise, our surface radar picked up a large number of skunks (unknown/unidentified vessels) leaving from the coast in the vicinity of Baracoa. If it was the amphibious armada of small vessels crossing the Passage, we were in trouble. A P-3 aircraft had come on station that evening; we sent it to scout the skunks. Fortunately they were just fishing boats leaving port. We all breathed a sigh of relief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack
After the watch I went down to CIC (Combat Information Center) to check on the Electronics Signal Intelligence Reports (I was also Electronic Warfare Officer). EWT1 Doxford was manning the EW gear, and blurted out he just detected what could have been a ping from a Russian missile tracking system emanating from the Gulf of Gonave in Haiti. We got pinged a second time -- set all electronics countermeasures, called for full General Quarters, and alerted Washington. Fortunately the radar profile was just slightly different from the missile tracking frequency -- it came from an innocent transmission by a merchant freighter. We were lucky again. Later that day other ships arrived in the area, and two days later the CIA determined that Castro, if he had thought about an invasion, had cast those thoughts aside. We stowed the 45s, BARs, and M-14s, won our Operational Readiness certification, and breathed easy.
(Recall during the Falkland Islands war HMS Sheffield was hit and sunk by an Exocet missile. From what I was told, two missiles were fired from an Argentine aircraft. Both missile were actually aimed at a British carrier, which cloaked itself in electronic disguise, repositioning itself to the missile. Once two missiles passed through the electronic image of the carrier, one crashed innocently into the sea. The other was deadly; it locked onto the Sheffield which was behind the carrier on escort duty. The crew of the Sheffield had only 5 seconds warning -- too little to respond. The missile hit, dooming the ship. That incident was 30 years ago; imagine what electronics are doing now.)
I wonder in their right mind who would want to take on a battlewagon, I hope your uncle was not involved in the disaster that befell that crew and ship I have read the book about her and the crew it is often referred to as "The day of the shark" because of the item she had up the bow, secrecy was paramount so there was no route on record for her journey to or from her destination, on the way back from Tinian she met the Japanese submarine that sank her...... the book is call "Abandon Ship" By Richard F Newcomb.
Intrigued by the question of Naval small arms in 1940, I pulled out my father's 1940 Edition of the Blue Jacket's Manual, which was issued to all enlisted recruits and officer candidates. It was originally prepared in 1902, and revised several times by 1940. In particular, the 1940 edition was intended to "modernize the manual so that it agrees in substance with the latest training courses and includes such other information as would tend to make an able seaman and a thorough man-o'-war's man."
The contents on small arms would most probably reflect what small arms the sailor or officer would find aboard a typical naval vessel.
Chapter 40: "Carrying the Automatic Rifle and Submachine Gun" refers specifically to the Browning Automatic Rifle and the Thompson Submachine Gun.
Chapter 42: "Small Arms" refers specifically to the 1903 Springfield (not Model 1917 Enfield) described specifically as "the United States Magazine Rifle, Model of 1903," and "the Colt 45 caliber automatic pistol is the United States Navy standard." (No other small arms are specifically cited, except in short mention of life-line guns, etc.
Of course there is a full chapter on "Elementary Gunnery" and "Advanced Gunnery" addressing the basics and nuances of the large cannons -- 5" to 16".
There is very little about intermediate guns such as machine guns, submarine deck guns, or anti-aircraft guns.
Navy manuals often tended to lag behind the latest technical developments in radar and weapons, and were heavy on sailing boat drill and other stuff less relevant to the for-the-duration sailor.
Some years ago when The Springfield Research Service (SRS) database was on line I was searching for a Krag that was known to be in my family and the serial range of Krags around it to see if I could correlate it to some sales to a NY Volunteer Cavalry unit. In any case ins researching this I can across a slot of Krags that were said to be donated to the US Navy in WWII in 1942 and were so entered in the data base. They were a range of 1896 and 1898 rifles.
The only information I was ever able to get on this was an older Navy Chap at a show who said for a brief period of time in 1942, the US NAVY was pulling M1903 rifles out of ships and gibing them to the Marines, replacing such arms with the Krags that were donated. He specifically said some minesweepers were so equipped.
By late 1942 or early 1943 the need went away and presumably the Krag rifles also. Back in an old American rifleman from the late 1950s I seem to recall a naval station selling Krag rifles in the Northwest around 1957 to 1958.
The one thing that makes me wonder about actual widespread issue was there is no WWII ammunition contract for Krags. According to DCM records the last Krag ammo was sold of in the 1920s and by the 1930s they were selling the reduced charge Krag loads to DCM shooters, so there could not have been much ammo in the system to support any real issue.
The Royal Australian Navy also had Lanchesters on some ships before and during WW2. I suspect that some of these arrived in ships transferred from the Royal Navy.
Trying to find the WW2 "official" annuals (imaginatively titled: HMAS Mk1, HMAS Mk2, etc) These were large-format, hard-bound books published annually by the Australian War Memorial during the conflict and into the 1950s. In one of these is a nice big photo of an Australian Naval Rating clutching a Lanchester.
I have found the complete set for the Army and RAAF, along with the Volunteer Defence Corps, but the RAN ones are probably still sealed in a box somewhere.
Photo of Lanchesters in RAN service.
Found it.
In HMAS Mk lll, page 31
Will try to upload.
This time, for sure!
Every video I see of guys shooting the Lanchester ends with a big smile.
Bob
When we sold ships to foreign Navies, they were usually sold as 'with stores' as the Navy says or complete to CES as we Army types would prefer it. Sterling would often get requests for Lanchester spares from the South American Navies who were large scale purchasers of our RN ships and who's Naval format/doctrine was closely allied to ours for some reason. Sterling would supply spare parts while they were still in stock and remanufactured some parts up into the late 60's/early 70's but non interchangeability caused some problems that could be overcome with hand fitting. Eventually they offered to sell Chile (good customers.....) Sterling L2A3's/Mk4's at cost PLUS the equivalent number of Lanchesters. Or something close to that simple formula on the basis that the Lanchesters could go to other nations as refurbished spare parts
Certainly the two big RNZN Cruisers I visited during a bit of a jolly, the Blackpool and Royalist had racks of Lanchesters and a big RAN aircraft carrier docked at Sydney (woolamoolooo as I seem to remember?) had Lanchesters and SMLE's
Further to BinO's picture, while I was in NZ doing some job somewhere - probably at Devonport - someone gave me 6 or so of those cap bands with simply HMNZS on them, similar to the HMAS shown on Bruce's pic. The man told me that they'd been commissioned as film props in the early 60's for a NZTV documentary regarding the sinking of the Graff Spee when one of the big ships involved was from the NZ Navy. Wish I still had them. Mind you, I expect the RNZN wish they still had those two big cruisers..........
Off the page a bit but......... When I was writing the Sterling book, some of the papers mentioned that a small pro-rata % of Lanchester guns should be manufactured so as to accept the what was described as 'the American rifle bayonet in service' This will have been the P'14/17 bayonet at the time. I have never ever seen one or heard of anyone ever a) having one or b) seen one either including a large importer. I can only assume now that at the time, the guns were for the Army and it's true that initially, large quantities were earmarked for the Army. Presumably by the time production got under way that idea had been kicked into touch. But there's always a chance that an early Mk1 was fitted with a P'14 type extended bayonet standard. It would only be a slightly different, almost indistinguishable sling loop/bayonet standard casting. I'm sure that there is a lot more to be unearthed about them.