Why my M1 Garand Blew up - YouTube might be of interest to some of you that shoot this ammo
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Why my M1 Garand Blew up - YouTube might be of interest to some of you that shoot this ammo
I don't even have to start the vid for this one...steel case, Wolfe brand? Filled with dung of their ancestors and lacquered thickly...touch off and watch out. No thanks...
He's got some pierced primers too.
But it did a hell of a job on the stock no is lucky to have just stinging his hands on a limb here ~ if we have a softer metal like brass case grip the chamber wall then there is a high chance it will not stick but a steel case has no give and pretty much stays the expanded shape after firing....
Come on Jim ya gotta see the walnut stock it really split from rissole to breakfast time the ol shooter got off lightly I think
OK, I watched it again. I have seen it before. How "Convenient" the gunsmith was Cabella's own...? That doesn't matter. Simple anyway, Cabellas sells him sh*tty ammo, they now owe him a gun. Hope he learned not to buy cheap crap. Too bad about the little tanker. It would be hard to convince me to buy any single part for a salvage part now.
Well Jim, I think the story in this video is more about how Cabela's and Cabela's contract gun smith did this man a solid and less about what kind or quality of ammo they sell. Tula ammo is great for an AKM or SKS but I would not run it in any other weapon I own. I say hats off to Cabela's for taking care of their customer.
And yes, they did withdraw all that ammo when they found out.
"Pierced and flattened primers - these are a sign of overpressure."
How true those words are! So why did the shooter ignore them and carry on shooting until the system finally let go?
The whole event is an argument in favour of the German regulation that you must take and pass a course that includes basic safety aspects as a precondition before you can even apply for a firearms licence. I am not keen on being struck by flying bits of other people's guns!
Well said BAR. Amazing the Wolf Ammo was repackaged as "Herters" -- what a double entendre! Just reaffirms the old adages:Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
"I'm too poor to buy cheap stuff" and "Never by cheap shoes if you care about your feet."
Cabela's did the right thing (perhaps for the moment), but deciding to sell cheap ammo is obviously not wise. I think I saw at least one other cartridge in the video that had a split casing. I'm sticking with the trusted brands after seeing this video.
How I hate to see a beautiful gun like and M-1 rifle split from head to heel. The shooter was lucky. The M-1 had been rebarrelled from 30-06 to 308, so the barrel must have been relatively new, and probably not a cause of the failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
Not Wolf. It's Tula repackaged. Although probably about the same :) Also, the shooter even made comment about how he should have noticed the signs of over pressurization.
Thanks for the correction Bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger
Is there any evidence of steel casings being more susceptible to cracking/fracturing than brass, which is softer, but more malleable. What are the pros and cons of steel shells other than cost?
No, it wasn't Wolfe brand but I hadn't watched the vid again. It's all junk ammo and when you go cheap you get what you pay for...eventually. Let the arguments begin...and the lectures.
This is a great video that was shown to a group of us a while back. Needless to say it opened some eyes. Mine included.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBAh_8usXBI
Interesting video. However, it begs the question of quality control. I still remember the Yugo -- worst QC ever. The evidence of cracked casings and over-charged primers could all be tied directly to poor quality. What I've learned quickly from this thread -- don't trust my life or my rifle to a brand I cannot trust. Cheap is really dangerous. I will stick with good old American ammo -- it's clearly worth every extra penny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Hollinger
Seaspriter, I totally agree and don't shoot Wolf or Tula in anything but my AKs. I believe Wolf and Tula are far better than some of the others on the cheap market. I posted this because it was posted on another site where a quite heated argument ensued over brass verses steel cased ammo. Not because of quality control issues but over steel purportedly damaging extractors and chambers. This video dispels that fairly well I think.
Um, over here in rusticland we don't have licenses for long arms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
Bob
As a whole exercise I put the thread up as an alert for personnel to keep an eye on their primers but also the way the rifle behaves as certainly that bolt body would be slamming back with the high over pressure a combination as Bob mentioned it would have had a new .308 barrel and o/loaded ammo for that particular system set the system up for failure at some point. I did the primer thing (They fell out) with my 6.6/284 and stopped at 3 rounds as they were not consecutive 2 - 6 - 9th thats where we surmised the load was suffering flash over. (Ceased that lark, pulled the rounds and use that powder now in my 22/250)
And annnuuurver fing you also learn when shooting hand guns (wheel guns anyway) as I cannot vouch for semi-autos is if you suffer a squib load that does not come out the barrel in a speed shoot and you poke another up there and well thats the end of that barrel, saw it at the state titles shooting plates a nice .357 Mag S&W race gun Bang Bang ppfffft BANG "Ooops! thats the end of my weekend was the exclamation,"
I guess the whole crux of this thread was to highlight not that cheap ammo is the cause of allot of problems but shooter awareness as to what is going on 5-6" in front of your beak and how your fire arm is reacting I just wanted people to be safe if it does not feel right stop and re assess.
Another trap for the unwary is the DP 3 and the Hornady auto powder dispensers or any for that matter is the powder tube as we had a situation on the mound this year, sorta went I was up talking & watching a friend shoot his .260 Imp and as we were gas bagging and watching my friend struggle with the conditions his catch cry when he nails a good score is "This thing shoots like a jet" funny thing is jets either use a mini-gun or a 1000lb JDAM?
Anyway all of a sudden above all the other rifles there was an almighty bang from 3 shooters to my Rt I looked over like everyone else and said WTFWT? to see another of my friends stunned on his knees with flecks of blood over his brow and Rt cheek a chunk missing from the left side of the stock near the gas port and a whole lota smoke.
When all settled and after checking and patching up & he was ok we attended the rifle on the mound, the bolt was jammed shut we knew it had fired? so off the mound it went and ended up bending the bolt handle still would not budge my friend took it home he being a gunsmith got the bolt open replaced the handle and checked the weapon fixed the stock and came back the following week.
The up shot of this is my friend was changing powders got distracted and forgot to empty the powder tube, it filled the case to @ the right level and my friend did not pick up the difference so the set up was there which could have ended really badly had the action not been a Barnard! (This just shows things can occur and not be picked up)
We did up here in frozenland...for a few years. That was bad, now it's past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack
"I guess the whole crux of this thread was to highlight not that cheap ammo is the cause of allot of problems but shooter awareness as to what is going on 5-6" in front of your beak and how your fire arm is reacting I just wanted people to be safe if it does not feel right stop and re assess."
Cinders got the point. And I was not uttering an opinion as to the desirability or otherwise of licensing of individual guns, but suggesting that the requirement to have acquired some proper knowledge of the potential hazards before using any weapon is no bad thing.
"The up shot of this is my friend was changing powders got distracted and forgot to empty the powder tube, it filled the case to @ the right level and my friend did not pick up the difference."
And to prevent this, there is a simple safety rule: only use one kind of powder to load one calibre in one session. Then clear the bench, go for a walk/have a cup of tea, and start afresh if you want to load a different cartridge.
Agreed, plus one...clear your head while working.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
That's what I do Patrick I may have allot of powder out but there is only one powder on the bench at any one time the rest are on the floor and are locked back up when I have finished loading for the day, when I am changing powders I clear the bench of the just used powder container put it on the floor and grab the next one and up on the bench it goes for the rifle it is used in I do not even leave empty containers of the same powder on the bench if that happens straight in the bin with the empty grab a freshy. And another thing I do not do is drink alcohol when reloading a sure recipe for disaster......
Great point fellas.
Because shotgun powder is near impossible to get I had three different powder brands to reload three cases of shells. I would make sure I didn't load odd numbers (all in 25 round increments) so I had no loose rounds. I would empty the machine (Pacific 366) of all hulls and rounds prior to moving on to the next brand of powder. Each brand takes it's own specific powder bushing to get the desired fps charge of grains. I then marked each 25 round box with the powder brand and grains so there was never any confusion.
No alcohol is a must also and thank you for bringing that up Cinders.
Two factors here: Steel case and Unlocking speed.
Steel cases in Rifles designed for Brass ( as was the original .30/06 Garand) don't go very well ( I found this with French Grey steel cases (.30cal) and extraction problems.
But the major cause of this .308 ( for want of a better term) problem is in the Conversion from Normal "Garand" to Short Barrelled "Tanker" (Misnomer) in .308.
The Garand works at a certain Port Pressure ( not to exceed 15,000 PSI); the Longer Garand Barrel and the Progressive 4895 type powder of the 30/06 gives this Optimum operating Port Pressure. The delay in opening and extraction time allows the Brass case to retract from the Chamber walls, and be extracted.
With a conversion to shorter barrel, probably with the Same Gas Port diameter, the Port Pressure is much higher ( given the same or higher chamber pressure of the .308 cartridge)
and so the Case (Brass or steel) is being "extracted" whilst the cases is still "stuck" to the case walls. Hence the Partial Head separation and eventual Destructive Gas escape, splitting the stock. Effectively, the Increased velocity of opening, allowed the Bolt's extractor to over-ride the rim, and lose Bolt head support of the case whilst the Case was still stuck to the chamber walls. With steel cases, this is very Problematical.
Your Flattened Primers are not a sign of "Bad Loads" but of Incorrect (too high) residual pressures due to Short Barrel and early Opening of the action.
The Problem is how the rifle was converted, and using "Non-complying" ammo case material.
If you read all the Books on the Development of both a Full Auto .30 cal Garand, and subsequent development of the M14 rifle, you will see that balancing Gas pressure curves and Bolt opening velocities is not an easy Matter. SA/FA rifles which have "gas regulators" or "Gas expansion cutoff systems" will always work better with Both Brass and steel ammo, if properly adjusted. Those which don't have these Gas variability mechanisms, will fail (Case or Mechanism) if the "Wrong" ammo is used (or a Barrel length is changed, without changing the Gas Port diameter).
any further discussion as to the technicalities of this problem can be done directly, at
info@avballistics.com.au ( personal experience with both .30/06 and .308 shorty Garands, and other "shorties" as well (SKS, FN-FAL, etc) where position of Gas Port is changed, or calibre is changed ( ie, a .308 x 1,6" in a SKS).
Another example is Swedish Ag42B, if the Gas port gets burnt out, the action will tear case rims off Brass cases ( ie, opening cycle too fast for Brass retraction).
Doc AV
Maybe the Cabellas Herter ammo was not at fault after all, except for being Steel, rather than Brass.
Sunday a fellow shooter just purchased an M1 chambered in 7.62X51. He never owned or shot a Garand. While he was sighting in I noticed on certain shots there was a muzzle flash. I looked at his loaded clips and he had a selection of LC09 and steel zinc coated Colt ammo. When I see him again I will provide the Youtube video for his consideration.
I've never seen that stuff. We get zinc cases MFS ammo up here though. I don't bother with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip
Seen Skip, thanx...
Are they steel cased hence being zinc coated just asking.
The ones I have around here are not steel, just the softer stuff. The don't rust.
Steel case and Berdan primed.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
Blimey that must have given him one hell of a sore shoulder, that's one hell of a shock wave to laterally split the stock open! Going by the damage, he was lucky indeed to walk away from that one, it could have been much worse.
Our MFS ammo is also Berdan...I'll have to check to see if it takes a magnet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip
I watched the video more than once. Please check out :45 seconds in. Tell me what kind of gas plug that is and why the hell is it not a proper Garand part .What gunsmith would not notice that?
Many including myself use a different gas cylinder lock screw relief valve to bleed off excess pressure. Very common. That won't cause a blow up. Quite the opposite. Even if that's a solid one, it makes it no worse than the original, which doesn't bleed pressure off.
I agree that Cabella's did the correct thing in recalling that junk they were selling ...and offering the guy gas money, and to refund his money.... but it was not to be nice, I am sure it was motavated by their fear of being sued... Let me tell you a story that really hurt my son.
About 5 years ago my son worked for Cabella's in Reno Nv. as the gun shop manager... and somehow a man bought 3 handguns and walked out of the store with 4 handguns...my son was not even working that day... and as soon as he was told about the situation he called the man...(from the number on his forms ) and told him to come back to the store and pay for that 4th gun or the next call was to be the Reno Police... the man came back, paid and Cabella's did not press charges on him....
But they fired (1) the check out clerk (2) the man at the gun counter that sold the guns and
(3) my son who was not even in the store at the time..... NOT FAIR !
I wrote Mr. Cabella and got no reply, and so I wrote the Chairman of the Board of Cabella's and told them I thought they were unfair and mean ..... (I thought worse things)
Just thought I would tell all, that I think Cabella's is not such a nice place... I did not expect hugs but what they did to my son was rotten...
Joel
\
I agree, they were totally unjustified in firing your son. On the other side of the coin, the Navy holds the Captain responsible "for everything his men do or fail to do." If he is catching a nap in his bunk after 20 hours on the bridge, and the ship runs aground, he gets the court martial -- he left the wrong man in charge. There's also an old stock market saying, "When they raid the bordello, they take the bad girls, the good girls... and the piano player."
This is a very delicate area, and while the firing of your son may not seem justified, there is probably more to this equation. As Bob Seijas states:
This is not just a military issue. I've owned two restaurants that served liquor. We were under an old English tradition called the "Dram Shop Laws," which holds accountable any owner whose establishment contributed to a problem involving drunkenness. Lawyers call it "joint and several responsibility." If a man came into my restaurant, and my waitress served him a glass of wine with dinner, then he walked across the street to the local bar and consumed a quart of whiskey, then got in his car and killed an innocent pedestrian, I, as owner, regardless of the fact I did not serve him while he was drunk, contributed to the accident and would be judged liable -- jointly and severally along with the bar that also served him. If I had deeper pockets than the bar owner, guess who would hold the bulk of the financial liability? While I might not consider that to be "fair," the family of the decedent would think it fair. Sorry for your son, but Cabellas was probably acting on legal counsel's advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by bob seijas
Yes, I think you are probably correct....but it sure hurt the kid...it took him a long while to find another gun related job...he took the firing personally.
Not knowing much about Garands but if it is a shortened barrel then if you have a gas regulator can you not use a smaller port to bleed an amount of the gas to have the same operating pressures, I only ask this as we are not allowed semi autos why I am surprised our Govt lets us read hunting books with semi autos in it. (Sorry Badger but I will cane our Govt every chance I can for the injustice they have perverted on the common law abiding gun owners of this nation of shooters....)
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." Shakespeare, Henry the Sixth. An excellent proposal :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaspriter
And, "The law is a a$$." Dickens, Oliver Twist, a profound observation.
Bob, the path of least resistance is to put them out of business. Less chance of going to jail. Here in Florida I have a friend who got out of law school last year and is working as a cash register clerk at Trader Joe's. Says she can't find a job. Why? There are 100,000 lawyers in the State of Florida alone! Too much supply, not enough demand. They are out hunting for business. If we learned to act fairly, ethically, and in a more trustworthy manner, the number of lawyers could be cut in half. Canada has done a much better job getting lawyers to shift into mediation roles, and less on litigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by bob seijas