No.4 Mk1 (T) restoration project

Hello everyone.
I am very new in the Enfield field so please I apologize for my ignorance.
I purchased the Telescope version of the No4.
When I bought it I was aware of the not good conditions, origin and coherence of the weapon. After a night reading plenty of infos here and in other forums, for the cost of just few hundreds bucks, now I am here asking for some help.

First of all I post some pics of the item in the actual conditions and this is what I realized:
-Receiver with S on the right side, Crown D6 E near the bolt slot, T on the left side...I assumed it is original for Telescope, not about the serial;
-Buttstock not original of the weapon, missed rifle serial on the socket end, some confused letters or numbers punched on the top but in strange position, missing S51 mark on the pistol grip;
-Original No32 MkII telescope, but I believe not of this rifle...?!....repainting job;
-Original scope mount but with some reworking job for the second large serial. The scope mount, such as the whole rifle, has been sprayed with black commercial paint. Strange (?) lettering on the mount rings;
-Handguard (unfortunately with the indian screw)...do not know if it is original of this rifle;
-Solid front sight...correct?;
-Mk1 rear sight but missing Enfield and SM marks;
-Marks on the socket with some reworking...I suspect renumbering....will follow more detailed pics;
Please take a look at the pics....more will follow.
Please let me know the first impressions and feel free to ask all pics or infos in order to make clear the story of this rifle and what I need to do to restore it.

By the way I attempted to contact BDL Ltd. for the order of the "An armourer's perspective" book but the email has not been delivered....someone knows the reason?...I need to purchase this book and the other pamphlet about the Telescope I saw on this forum!

I wish to thank in advance all folks will help me in this journey.
Paolo

Hi Paolo,

I've got a few copies of the telescope booklet available but "Armourer's Perspective" is out of print and I no longer stock it. You may be able to obtain a copy from http://www.skennerton.com but they are at a much increased price.

Brian

Hi Paolo,
Some close up photographs of the receiver butt socket & side wall would be nice, with the scope removed, as this is the best way to get a look at the body pads. However, IMHO the rifle looks like an honest but well travelled 4T. The rifle has been to India, as evidenced not only by the 'Ishy screw' but also by the crudely hand stamped 'No4 Mk1' on the receiver side wall. Many 4T's were converted to Mk 1/2 rifles by the Indians, & these rifle had the original markings completely scrubbed. However, not all rifles supplied to them were so modified - some were left as Mk1's, but they more often than not seem to have had the original receiver markings 'accentuated' like this.
The forend has the low side to clear the cut off, indicating that it of of earlyish manufacture & so not original to your rifle, & no doubt many other parts have been swapped about over the years - but as Peter will tell you, this is only to be expected in a rifle that has seen long & heavy service. I think the rifle is real. The problem is to what extent do you want to restore it; a minor tidy up of the tired woodwork, or a full rebuild?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Hi Paolo,

I've got a few copies of the telescope booklet available but "Armourer's Perspective" is out of print and I no longer stock it. You may be able to obtain a copy from http://www.skennerton.com but they are at a much increased price.

Brian

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Thank you and please, let me know how me can manage the purchase of the booklet. Take count that I have a US shipping address and can pay with mastercard or Paypal.
I will email to Mr. skennerton.

Hello.
Here are some close up pics.
I decided to remove the black paint here and there...in fact I will remove all the paint...you will see how ridicolous it is the spraying job.
Please take a look to the pics and to the following new questions:
1-is the so heavy punched serial the original one? The surface under the bolt serial shows grinding job and also underneath the socket serial you can see other digits traces.
2-in the low portion of the socket now is evident a "T"....maybe what remains of the "TR"?
3-the wood parts you see is what I found after the disassembly...also the copper bands. Because of the Isha screw, the not correct type of the forestock, the mispunched, not matched and cracked rear bridge in the buttstock,....I am considering to change all wood parts with genuine old ones...at least not abused, with the exception of the 2 upper handguard parts...What do you think?
4-the simple lettering of the rings with single "E" and "F" letters instead of the 3 digits...is it correct anyway?
5-What about the mount pads?....for sure removed in the past more then one time..
6-What do you think on barrel and receiver ring marks?

Thank you.
Paolo

The No4 T that you have saw service and was refurbished in India...maybe bolt and barrel replaced...I see an "RFI" bolt head. The question you need to answer...do you restore to Indian spec's or do you take it back to Brit specs. It's just a question of part availability and the investment you want to make.

Is there a manufactures code on the butt socket with a date? { Viewed pic's again. See the butt socket is stamped "M 47 C" which is BSA and "1945" therefore serial number is not correct as first issued} I believe you can see a faint impression of a serial number beneath the current one. The heavy pantograph serial number "T 32294" is Indian. You can see a scope number stamped into the top of the stock wrist and its obscured...could clean with some lacquer thin or solvent to raise the number. The wood you have has been fitted to the rifle....I'd shot it to determine performance...it might surprise you! The scope bracket is puzzling...the match code on the caps is not typical Brit. Maybe somebody else has seen this designation.

Scope pads have been worked on a couple times from the staking marks. Are they still solder to the receiver.

Is your scope complete and functional?

Interesting Project.

The "T" book Ian Skennerton/Peter Laidler wrote Ian does not have the book for sale and as Brian said they are long OOP I asked PL if there was going to be an amended version to this book and pretty much got the drift "No"
It also appears to have had the "Draws" repaired at some stage (Vertical dowels and differing timber colour)

peval65: If it were mine I'd leave it as is. The Indian features, like the galvanized steel bedding piece, are interesting and mean this "T" has a longer history of usage than many. I'd love to have one like that! Regards.

Ridolpho

I have to ask this question and hopefully PL or another member will answer it, my question is this ~ If the scope has been removed from the rifles bracket then placed back in the same bracket does this alter the alignment of the scope to the bore if so then would there be enough adjustment in the drums to eliminate the difference. As it is the bracket that is aligned to the bore on both Vertical and Horizontal planes is this correct.

If the tele is removed from its original bracket and replaced then in theory it would be a perfect match again afterwards. We would regularly do this.

If I was rebuilding this rifle I'd put the fitting of the fore-end back to what it SHOULD be. That was has been proved to be the best and most robust method for the No4 rifle. And accuracy was quite an important feature of the No4T rifle in my day!

I might be wrong but I think the serial number is the original - certainly a 'T' prefix serial would be correct for early 1945. Also, if you look at the photo showing the barrel reinforce & receiver ring you will see the original number on the reinforce - no letter prefix, but quite clearly 322whateveritwas.

If you want to shoot it I'd do as Peter suggests re the forend, but would otherwise leave the restoration to a minimum - you'll never lose the big heavily stamped marks on the receiver side wall, so I wouldn't try, & just accept it in its Indian guise.

Yep....., Roger is right in my opinion. I'd restore it to how it should be - that is properly - without trying to hide its hard worked Indian provenance. You haven't mentioned the state of the telescope yet but I expect that.......... No, I'll stop there!

I rebuilt its older brother 14568 in 2001. There are some 40 or so ex Indian telescopes around this serial number batch

Another question that I have and it is probably a no brainer but why are witness lines on the T"s one on the underside of the barrel and one on the receiver? I just checked an old action I have lying around and its not on that one nor from memory on my 2 Savage No.4's yet my No.4 T BSA Shirley has those marks. I have included a pic of the underside of my T's action and barrel and you can see the line just in front of the action screw hole. As in Thread #5 Pic 9 of peval65's T

Clean it, shoot it, then determine if you want to "restore it". Your Butt stock is marked by the Indian Ord Corp.

Your rifle currently as near as I can see is as Indian issued. Due to the extra markings added in Indian service, I would leave it as is.

Nobody really understands the breeching-up marks on No4T rifles because they weren't unbreeched during the fitting up stage - so why bother? Additionally, any sort of breeching up mark is notoriously fickle and depends too much on the fitters opinion as to whether it is or isn't aligned. (The SA80 is a good example of this.) If you need to re-barrel a No4 or a T, and I have done one or two zillion, then you don't need a witness mark...... you use the gauge or the surface plate!

Additionally, no one at H&H put the witness mark there so far as we know. What about at BSA once it was selected as suitable for TR? Good point but that'd mean it had to be stripped, marked and re-assembled again after the range test. And to achieve what?

Back to the T in question. If it was a rusty old bodged up E Type Jag that looked like it went to Italy deck cargo on a submarine, would you be happy with it? Or would you at the very least, make it presentable? What about the telescope. Should he leave the old Indian coathanger wire graticle and string crosswire? I know it's a tad glib of me to say it like this but this tired but grand old lady deserves a bit of TLC at this stage of its hard life. And the Indian markings and its equally proud heritage will still be there.

I thought much to all the replies to my thread....I decided for a soft restoration, leaving in place the woods and the irons I found together.
Just that horrible black sprayed paint... I would remove it and would see the remaining finish...
I shot any weapon I have every once in a while...I enjoy it.... so I hope to align the telescope.
Here are some telescope pics.....the black brush painted lacquer was flacking off easily and I removed it...the only original paint remains underneath the rings and it is solvent proof like many military paints.
I found no other lettering on the tube like the "W" or so.
The vision is clear and crisp, no lense defects visible thru the scope at my eyes.
Is the reticle of the scope correct?
What do you think about the scope itself?
Thanks everyone.
Paolo

I would say that the tele is in remarkably good condition when compared to the usual Indian ones you come across. But it might not fare so well when subject to an optical examination and light test. It will not have a red W unless the drums are waterproofed

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I would say that the tele is in remarkably good condition when compared to the usual Indian ones you come across. But it might not fare so well when subject to an optical examination and light test. It will not have a red W unless the drums are waterproofed

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Peter
What means "waterproofed"? In which way the drums are waterproofed?..Maybe the W is gone with the original paint so I would check the drums.
It is my intention to buy the booklet on the telescope but...is there some simple test to do in order to verify the optical conditions without disassembe it??
In your opinion is the black medium matt paint visible on the rings band, the original??
The No.8 case is overpainted with gloss green paint and I do not know the meaning of the white lettering. Under the glossy paint there is a matt "olive drab" ..is it the original paint?
Again thank you.
Paolo

Hope Peter won't mind me chipping in, but the original finish on those lateish Watson Mk2's was blued, though many have been painted (& not always with suncorite as in this case) after the event. You won't generally see a 'W' other than on a Mk3 scope, unless it has been re-worked post war.

The only W's you might see on Mk2 telescopes are those converted to Mk2/1 and those Roger mentions, reworked after WW2 for the Far East Land Forces. Easily identified by the little desiccation screw in the turret housing.

Since you asked, the drums were waterproofed by machining a recess in the underside of the index plate around the central thumbscrew opening and inserting a rubber (or second best, a fibre) seal. The seal was retained in place and slightly compressed by the clicker plate which made the drum waterproof

To be honest, the Indian paint makes later refurbishment hard work because it has to be totally stripped. The slightest trace of any left will pickle and lift the new paint and it'll never go off even after it's gone through the bake oven. That goes for those scopes given a quick blow job by enthusiastic amateurs using a cheap spray can. Talk about making a simple job difficult!

I would concur absolutely with what Peter says about the awful paint these scopes come covered in. I've restored a few with Peter's help in the past & I always get the tubes bead blasted to totally remove all traces of the paint. You can then phos & suncorite them for a 'proper' military spec refurbished finish.

Peter, when you refer to a "quick blow job", how quick would you reckon would be classified as "quick?"
Rob

Ah, yes Rob. Got my words mixed up. I meant to say a quick blow-over with a can of aerosol. An easy mistake to make at my age!

"Classified" would be a better word!:madsmile:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I would concur absolutely with what Peter says about the awful paint these scopes come covered in. I've restored a few with Peter's help in the past & I always get the tubes bead blasted to totally remove all traces of the paint. You can then phos & suncorite them for a 'proper' military spec refurbished finish.

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OK I will strip all the old paints (indian and the surviving original) then I have to refinish the scope but do not understand well the correct way...with "phos & suncorite" do you intend phosphating job then suncorite spray?
I do not see any phosphating trace....maybe a light blueing on the iron parts....
As I told I am new on Enfields and really do not know well what Suncorite is.....paint I suppose but is it still available?...and where?
I could blead blast the scope but is it really necessary?...it is a strong process..
...please let me understand.

In addition in the weekend I would strip the black spray can paint from the whole action and barrel....then I will post some pics of the underneath finish and conditions.
Which was the original finish of the rifle?

Thanks and thanks again for the patience!
Paolo

Indian refurbished rifles including "T" are painted with a heavy coat of black enamel over the existing surface. I can be easily removed with most commercial chemical strippers. Done for climate protection however does not adhere 100% hence flake off as evidenced on your Enfield. If you decided on restoration to "Indian Specifications" I would chemically strip the painted surfaces and reapply the same paint. If you want Brit finish then you would bead blast, phosphate and coat with Suncorite. The Suncorite is nasty stuff, requires the appropriate PPE and needs to be baked on....best left to a professional. Suncorite is difficult to source and pricey. Maybe somebody in the UK could help you with its procurement?

Your Watson scope was originally "Blued" and received a heavy paint coat while in India. To restore, the scope must be dismantled, cleaned then blued or bead blasted/phosphated/Suncorited and necessary repairs done prior to reassembly. I'd recommend sending it to a Professional if you decide to go this way. I would be inclined to stay with the Indian finish and spry with black enamel.

Always a difficult decision on degree of restoration. Your No4T has a long and interesting history. The "Indian Specification" preserves that linage.

My thoughts..sure there are others,

Ron (Canada)

Ron makes a good point. If you want to keep the scope in 'Indian trim' then you only need to get it stripped & cleaned, the horrible paint removed, & then repaint it with the black enamel (but maybe a little more carefully than the Indians did originally!). The bead blasting, phosphating & suncoriting would only be correct for a 'British spec' refurbishment. Yes, the scope was originally blued, but in UK service the standard for refurbishment is to go with the 'phos & blacked' finish, regardless of the original finish on the scope.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Ron makes a good point. If you want to keep the scope in 'Indian trim' then you only need to get it stripped & cleaned, the horrible paint removed, & then repaint it with the black enamel (but maybe a little more carefully than the Indians did originally!). The bead blasting, phosphating & suncoriting would only be correct for a 'British spec' refurbishment. Yes, the scope was originally blued, but in UK service the standard for refurbishment is to go with the 'phos & blacked' finish, regardless of the original finish on the scope.

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As told I decided to keep the rifle to "Indian specification", so here is what I think to do:
I will strip the old paint (almost done) and will blue the scope....here is the first question....was it blued on iron parts only or even the brass ones?..because I have the way to oxidize brass also....then I will re-paint the scope with black paint medium matt (not the cheap spray can, I will use coachbuilder paint where I can have every gloss rate and high quality).

About optics I have a retired man near my town that repairs rifle scopes by 30 years...these are quite rare here in Italy but I believe he is quite skilled in this job.

Another question: the scope can is a correct No.8 Mk1 but again over painted with a number which I do not know the meaning (please take a look to the pics)....Underneath I can see a green matt paint like "olive drab".....What do you suggest for this part?

Thanks.
Paolo

Hi
Peval 65 and others looking for a copy of An armourers perspective .303 No.4 (T) sniper rifle. Try gunshowbooks.com they did have several copies available.

That scope will be gorgeous once done. Many aren't in anywhere near that condition...

Hi Peval65, re your question on the brass turret assembly - some were chemically blacked & some were painted. Off the top of my head I can't remember for certain if all Watson Mk2's were chemically done or painted, though speaking from memory I think they were painted with black enamel type paint.

Maybe one of the other forummers could help with the correct name to describe the exact shade of green that the scope tins were originally painted? I can recognise it but I couldn't describe it accurately for you!

Correct shade of green for the tin? Take it to your local paint supplier and they will mix a tin of paint for an exact colour match. BUT, if you want the colour specified for a workshop rebuild in the 60's, 70's and 80's here in the UK, then it's DEEP BRONZE GREEN.

I wouldn't repaint the tin at all to be honest - it'll just look like a repro of which there are a great many - leave as is unless you want to kill the value. Personally I'd have left the scope as was too as it's all about the history for me. It was painted like that 'in service' and for me therein lies the charm.

Here are pics of the action, barrel and parts after stripping job.
Original black paint survives just in very few corners or hidden parts.
I believe to leave these parts in this conditions.... just oil.
I believe the awful spray can job was made here by the importer.

The color of the tin I asked just to verify if the underneath visible color could be the original.
Someone can tell me the meaning of the writing on it? Could it be related to the Indian service or the whole new green paint and writing is a very new job like the black on the rifle?

I noted the front sight slanted surface in front of the shooter, without any anti reflecting work and...... the swivel and upper band with massive brass soldering (not the narrow band).....are these things corrects?

Always thanks.
Paolo

I can only see one mark on the telescope case and that is AV2506. That is the rifle number of which that case and telescope originally belonged. Indicating to me that it is not original to your rifle. But so what........ That's how things are in the real world. The old painted over paper on the left hand inside of the lid are the remains of the old user instructions. I can't see any other marks.

Figure 17 - unknown
.015 = height of foresight blade + 1" so it is 1.015" above the centre line of the bore
45 = barrel date and various proof or examiners marks
32294, beaten into barrel by over zealous ham fisted Indian in-examiner.

Find a local engineering company locally and get the whole lot dunked into their phosphating tank or chemical blacking tank. IMPORTANT: There should/must be a spring washer between the front trigger guard sling swivel and the trigger guard. Make sure there is before you put it back together. In view of the unknown history of your rifle I'd read up on how to calculate the correct length of the collar for your rifle and fore-end. The collar is the little round tube sitting underneath the magazine catch in your photo

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

IMPORTANT: There should/must be a spring washer between the front trigger guard sling swivel and the trigger guard. Make sure there is before you put it back together.

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Peter, no spring washer....there is a 2 mm of free space from trigger guard and swivel round part....is this space where the washer should be? I remember that before to unscrew the swivel, it did play a lot but did not turn a full 360°.

The actual collar moves freely with play, when the trigger guard is put onto the fore-end and action but without screw.

Have a good evening.
Thanks
Paolo

I think you need to read the article about fitting the fore-end. Can someone who's computer literate resurrect it and highlight the section Paulo needs to digest. Thanks

Here you go peval65 have a look at this https://www.google.com/url?q=https:/...DjhkW5IIF_i6iw

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Here you go peval65 have a look at this https://www.google.com/url?q=https:/...DjhkW5IIF_i6iw

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Many thanks to you and Peter...I will read it carefully.
Have a good evening.
Paolo

By the way... I go for one moment just a little out of the main subject.
I saw in many articles that the correct sling for this rifle is a WWI 1907 USGI leather sling and Sice I wish to buy the sling also and the rifle will be done to the indian standard, the question is:
is the 1907 sling correct also for the 4T in the indian service?

Thanks
Paolo

Yes....., to start with. The Indian Army generally followed the pattern of their former British Army heritage until well into the 60's/70's when the old equipment was becoming worn out. Thereafter I would assume that they would have adopted a local pattern of sling or just continued the tacit UK military pattern of using the longer and more versatile Bren sling without the hooks. Certainly in the 70's they were still using vast amounts of UK wartime Bedford, Austin and Commer vehicles

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Originally Posted by PrinzEugen

I wouldn't repaint the tin at all to be honest - it'll just look like a repro of which there are a great many - leave as is unless you want to kill the value. Personally I'd have left the scope as was too as it's all about the history for me. It was painted like that 'in service' and for me therein lies the charm.

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Peval65, I,m with PE regarding the tin, I know it is tempting but leave as is, the many shades are as he says its history, if it was a rusty reck then there is no other option than to re paint etc, I did one recently but was a bit more than just a paint. see link below

No 32 scope tin repair/ refinish

The two tone effect normally on a tin is due to the inside not seeing daylight and being handled etc. If you were to T cut a small area then thats your original colour, the mistake I made when trying to get the paint match was using an area on the bottom of the tin...... never crossed my mind regarding fading over time. Yours has three colours as the top of the tin has been painted over to apply the new rifle number. There may just be a chance someone is looking for that tin........

I,ve a theory behind the Indian black paint.... in this case the 5 ltr tin of paint is opened a large quantity of paint is removed from the tin and the rest thinned out, of course everyone then has at least some decent paint to use at home maybe the gate, window bars etc.

I,ve sailed with Indian crews a few times, ( I used to eat their curries, never be far from a toilet though, goes in hot comes out even hotter) there working gear was usually in tatters and had many repairs etc, but paid off the ship in a nice new pair of safety shoes, also a box of soap powder (industrial size) nicely wrapped up with the string carry handle.

Makes you wonder at times but an oiler on my watch many years ago was very well educated I used to ask him why do this, he said the money was very good although to us it was peanuts and at one time he was earning more than his Brother who was a pilot in the Indian Air Force.

I don't think posterity will be any poorer if you choose to restore it. It all depends on how many you have and what you want your rifle to be.

The question is, to what point do you restore it? If you want it as close to 1943 as possible, you get rid of all those ugly Indian additions: non-original "T" stamp, "303B" on the barrel ring (did the Indians really put that on??), restamped "No4 MkI", numbers on the bracket, etc. etc. You'd need strong nerves and a friendly TIG welder.:lol: Fortunately not a choice I've ever had to make!

I'm sure some people would at least pretend to be horrified by the idea, but that's your choice. Do you want a collector or a shooter?

Peval65: Any clear history of use is so rarely encountered with No. 4 rifles (at least in my limited experience) that I would consider it a shame to eliminate the record of Indian usage. The thing could have been present at one or more of the Indo-Pak wars. We all know where it came from originally. I doubt if a cosmetic "restoration" would add to it's abilities as a shooter but it would certainly change the way collectors would look at it and value it. This rifle has some interesting stories to tell- like the bedding method the Indians were testing (and which we know ultimately didn't prove superior). There are lots of reasonably original (as used by the British) T's around. Yours has its own distinct and interesting history. Regards.

Ridolpho

I am with Ridolpho on this keep the lineage endevour to do a good spruce up of the bits and repaint and try to keep the stampings evident and not obliterate them with layers of paint, you know its your rifle and you can do with it what you want and I think your train of action is following the right path. Whatever bits it has is from its service like Peter Laidler has said armourers just grabbed the next new bit and fitted it up as the main thing was to get it out and doing the business not worry about all matching bits and bobs. I had the draws repaired on my T a non standard way by master stock maker Ken Davis (40+ years experience) why! because it is my rifle, wont be sold till I am dead and will go to my son who even now wants the rifle, its all correct (apart from the draws) as far as the wise ones here have said and is referenced in Peters book.

Anyway you have allot of seagulls pecking at your door with honest and solid advice but in the very long run you have the call on what goes on with your T and all people who restore things always try to keep it as original as can be and that entails keeping and preserving all of its journey as that is its history.
I have posted the pics of Kens hand carved masterpiece before, this is his rifle and he hand carved the stock (Did not use a pattern machine as he does not own one all his stocks are one off's) this is what I call a restoration with a twist as he still has the original stock but it was shagged...

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The Indian Army generally followed the pattern of their former British Army heritage until well into the 60's/70's

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Thanks for this info, I will look for a good 1907 sling.

Answering to all the welcome posts regarding the finish....I decided to leave the rifle in the "Indian pattern",...already stripped off that very new black paint.
I believe to change the upper band and front swivel with original ones in better conditions.
About the wood parts I believe to redo just the finish as the actual is really too much gloss and I suspect it was done by the importer too.
The only thing disturbing my mind is that awful obliterated scope number on the top of the buttstock.....but want to keep the stock anyway.
About the tin case I have not decided yet!

I agree with folks recalling the history of this rifle and anyway a complete refurbishment to British pattern is always possible but I want a decent Rifle to shoot and enjoy not a living room piece.
Here in Italy these rifles are very seldom seen ( I know just 2 persons owning it, purchased 20 years ago with the original chest) and I was aware of some problems even though absolutely not an expert of Enfields, so the 650 euro I payed anyway worth itself.
I will overhaule it in the next winter in order to shoot it next spring when the good season will allow to go to a long range outdoor shooting field.

wow, 650 euro's, that is an amazing deal. i doubt there are many (any) here that would turn down your no4T at that price.

Here is some markings and pics after the gloss laquer stripping from the woods.
Maybe someone knows the story behind...
The fore end stock bears the rifle serial, the butt stock not.
Thanks

The SOU on the butt, photo 2 is the marking from 18 Command Workshop at Bovington in Dorset.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The SOU on the butt, photo 2 is the marking from 18 Command Workshop at Bovington in Dorset.

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Hello Peter.
In the picture is not visible but the actual writing is SOU3, and below something like 87?8 or 87?3 ...I do not know what it means
Anyway thank you